All this talk about fighting and defending oneself is getting annoying! If you are innocent and people are attacking you, defend yourself, but why get upset? You know your innocent, so you should care less what people say....I just think it's funny when people think I'm a wolf(duck) when I'm not. Then when I die I laugh at all who thought me bad. So noone get uptight, it's just a game remember!!!!;)

It is quite a matter for elsewhere. I was making a post on how to go about accusing people in TiG (Jr.). Its been applied (quite succesfully) in a Model United Nations I was in. Did I say that we question each other shyly? Not that I re-call. Yes, go ahead and say that in the United Nations they don't catch evil werecreatures set on killing you but the matter is the same, debating and (to an extent) arguing. Direct attacks could offend a person, I know well enough I've been left with a bitter taste in my mouth due to certain things said in this (WW in general) game.

It is of no concern to this game, I will merely be making a suggestion (part request) and if people wish to follow it in this game then all the better. If you wish to criticize me for this, kindly wait till after I've posted in TiG (and Jr.) before you do.

Ang - I did say quite clearly in my lunchtime post that I suspected Roa for what, out of some vestigal regard for the conventions of the downs I called hypocrisy.

What I meant was more on the lines of economy with the truth. Top three is high so to then say it isn't is just untrue.

I really want to get away from the Spawn stuff since I know my innocence will be shown posthumously. However I think it may be one of those unfortunate and destructive personality clashes. I don't see anything wrong with my goose logic. If we lynch someone strongly suspecting them to be a duck and they turned out to be "innocent" = and we know that term covers some distinctions, it is a stong possibility that they were the goose rather than an ordo or a gifted.

As for other suspects.... well I have to look at you and Morm becasue you know me best.....

Also I want to look beyond my normal circle of acquaintanceship. Lote's "emperor's new clothes" vote made me realise that we can get stuck on what we know of each other.

There, there, I'm sure your argument was very good, Sleepy-would you like biscuits with your camomile tea?

((Still, it could be a matter of academic approach. You're being taught to encourage co-operation, love of humanity, responsibility, and world peace. I am writing an Italian essay tonight entitled "Why I Hate England", "Perche Odio Inghilterra"...))

Time for me to collect my thoughts on everyone, based on what has occurred to date.

Anguirel has seemed nothing but helpful and constructive so far. He has put forward some credible theories and generally talked good sense. That is exactly how I would expect him to behave, if a Duck, but I think it more likely at the moment that he is a helpful innocent.

Mithalwen was my main suspect and has done little to change my mind today. Her cases against me (initially) and spawn (whom she voted for) were entirely flimsy and she was jumpy and defensive in response to the merest of comments. Yes, she can be irritable. But experience tells me that she can be a very jumpy Wolf (and, therefore, Duck) too. She seems more measured in her responses today (perhaps having had a chance to reassess overnight and tone down her Duckish jumpiness), but is still complaining about being suspected for her use of exclamation marks. For my part, it was not her use of punctuation, but her reaction to being called on it, which raised my suspicions of her.

Mormegil seemed slightly off to me yesterday. He jumped in today with a seemingly helpful analysis of what was said yesterday concerning Nilp. But, as others have pointed out, it provides him with the opportunity to appear helpful while planting seeds of suspicion where he wants them to grow. I rather agree with Nogrod that those who expressed suspicion of Nilp but did not vote for him are more suspicious than those who said little about him (even though I myself fall into that category – as does mormegil, of course).

Valier – more likely innocent than not for her vote for Nilp. It has been said that she has a good instinct for spotting Ducks, so I’d like to hear more from her today.

Nogrod – despite my disagreement with him yesterday, he seemed genuine enough in his intentions. And thankfully, he is concentrating more on looking for Ducks today and I agree with much of what he has said. Probably innocent.

Kath has not really said enough for me to form much of an opinion of her (although I sympathise with her reasons for being quiet yesterday). Her second vote for Sleepy might be regarded as suspicious, but it’s not enough to go on. I am glad that she looks to be feeling up to participating more today, and what she has said so far looks to be constructive (although she seems more argfumentative than usual).

Cailín is talking good sense. For some reason (probably something to do with a past life ;)) I generally trust Cailín, and I have no reason not to do so at present.

Roa Aoife has made a name for herself for being aggressive and for her argument with Nogrod. Neither particularly suggest Duckishness to me, although I am aware that she is more than capable of carrying off such behaviour as a Duck. Not sure about her making such a fuss over Nilp’s behaviour. It would be strange for a Duck to berate her fellow Duck so openly.

Glirdan was overly defensive yesterday, even though he was not under much serious suspicion (most of the suspicion expressed about him yesterday (mine included) came up during the opening Day 1 “in-character” banter). As I said yesterday, his point about Valier was a weak one, and seemingly gratuitous. While Nogrod has pointed out that Wolves sometimes make slips, I don’t see how saying “I never wanted her dead” about someone whose death was a foregone conclusion can be construed as a Duckish slip.

Lote22's only real contribution was to vote for Nilp. I currently believe her innocent for it, so would welcome some further input from her.

Lalaith has offered seemingly helpful and constructive comments, although nothing truly incisive. Then again, how many of us have? I have no reason to suspect her at the moment.

JennyHallu’s vote for Sleepy, tying him on 3 votes with Nilp, unnerves me. She was fairly vocal yesterday, without saying much that was constructive. I believe that she is capable of more. So I’m keeping my eye on her.

Elu Ancalime has contributed virtually nothing. He did not vote and has not explained why (other than some vague comment about there being a lot of discussion, which I didn’t really understand). Based on what Nogrod has said about his prior experience of Elu, I think it quite possible that he’s a silent Duck.

Sleepy Ranger was effectively the alternative candidate to Nilp yesterday. We would have to have been incredibly lucky to have had two Ducks on the ropes. But it’s not beyond the realms of possibility. Difficult to say at the moment.

Dancing spawn of ungoliant is one that I traditionally suspect, even though she usually talks sense and offers helpful analyses. She has been doing just that in this village, and yet I don’t find myself suspecting her. Which troubles me, if that makes any sense. For now, I am inclined to trust her.

So, in summary:

Probably innocent: Lote22

Currently inclined to trust: Anguirel, Valier, Nogrod, Cailín, Lalaith, spawn

Don’t know: Kath, Roa, Glirdan, Sleepy

Suspicious: mormegil, Jenny, Elu

Decidedly Duckish: Mithalwen

I think we should consider the consequences of the Nightingale not being able to protect the same person tonight. More on this shortly.

Oh Saucie .... you disappoint me. Now I am certain you are the goose.

Mith, it wasn't me who took issue with your use of the term hypocrisy, but Roa herself. My involvement was confined to correcting your spelling.

EDIT: Oops. That's meant to read Roa's spelling.

I do, though, think it rather slack of you, in view of the stunning wereperformance your repertoire now contains, to stress your honesty and insist that we, without proof, accept it. I find your appeal moving, but nowadays I don't get moved. Covered with too much, ah, fashionable Imperial costume, I suppose...

Correcting Roa's spelling, wasn't it, not Mith's....

Exactly, exactly, blast, forgot who I was talking to. My noodle is fried. Sorry Mith.

I didn't say otherwise. And I think I spelled it right originally. ButI think you asked at some point if I suspected anyone other than DSOU and I reminded you of stating my suspicion of Roa. I feel like that chap on House who had a medical condition that meant his words only made sense to him.

Oh great - I am damned regardless... Spawn suspects me cos she remembers me being a bad wolf, you do becasue you remember me as a good one. If you must bring up old games.....

Well, it is after all not as if I'm playing a different Mith every time...

...is it??? (My mind is filling with disturbing imaginings of thousands of Mith-doubles...)

A question for Spawn: have you been doing your analyses as the mood takes you, or focusing just on those villagers you suspect/find intriguing?

I would say that like, Goran Ivanisevic, there are three of me. Good, bad and emergency as far as WW games go. In life the cool, efficient but utterly bored book-keeper and administrator, the inner poet, and the shade of the teacher who thought she had a vocation but instead had breakdown.

I’ve been looking those who are left out from Morm’s (own analysis)list concerning Nilp. If we leave out those who actually voted for Nilp – just for this analysis - and those who a) said nothing, b) said little or unsubstantial, or c) defended him, it leaves four people out of the inquiry: Morm himself, Spm, Roa and Lalaith. Their thoughts about Nilp – and their actual votes were as follows:


VOTING: Mithalwen (10th vote – Nilp in trouble, but still Mith’s first voter)
10. SpM for Mith (Nilp-3, Kath-1, spawn-1, Nogrod-1, Glirdan-1, Sleepy-2, Mith-1)


VOTING: Glirdan (11th vote – Nilp still in trouble, Getting Glirdan nearer, but not voting Sleepy with 2 already)
11. Roa for Glirdan (Nilp-3, Kath-1, spawn-1, Nogrod-1, Glirdan-2, Sleepy-2, Mith-1)


VOTING: Nogrod (5th vote, very safe...)
5. Morm for Nogrod (Nilp-2, Kath-1, spawn-1, Nogrod-1)


VOTING: Glirdan (6th. Vote – widening the suspects, not of utmost help to Nilp)
6. Lalaith for Glirdan (Nilp-2, Kath-1, spawn-1, Nogrod-1, Glirdan-1)

* The vote-counts by Spm...

I don't know, whether their actual votes or the voting situation should be counted straightforwardly - our ducks are probably cunning enough not to try to save their companion and leave a track there (I've just mentioned them to see the situation, where they voted).

Judge yourselves. I'll try to do some thinkiing on these - and other matters too - quite soon.

Teehee. :D

I am so lost here.

Mithalwen - is completely clouding my mind, as in, I have no idea where she stands. I do distrust her.
Mormegil - I am admittedly swayed by the cases brought up against him. Some pointed out some odd things that escaped my notice. Again referring to a past life, I am inclined to trust Mormegil when he is not attacking me. Which is, of course, pretty senseless.
Roa Aoife - my own private worries remain re: the whole Nilp debate and issues. I explained in previous posts I believe.
JennyHallu - again in regards to Nilp and I had expected more constructive posting from her. Holding my judgement though.
Glirdan - I am not used to hearing nothing from Glirdy for so long. Worrisome.

This is the list of people currently under my attention. The others are either dunnos or inclined-to-trust-os.

Oh, and Nogrod, I do not think our Ducks expected Nilp to die that Day or any Day soon... so vote-patterns might be more telling than in a normal wolf-under-fire situation. That is just my opinion.

Cailin, you are a bright girl and I, on instinct rather than analysis, would be surprised if you were web footed. Deep breath. Clear your mind and think for yourself but just consider the possibility that I speak the absolute truth.

I found Nogrod's analysis illuminating. I had not really looked at the 'suspecting Nilp but not voting for him' crowd, probably because I was in their number and my own reasons for deciding against voting for him were quite genuine, I kind of assumed everyone else in the same boat had thought the same way.
A very foolish assumption to make in Werewolf, of course.

Looking at Nogrod's post, I see trouble with Roa again.

If she's not a duck she's been very goosey. Arguing ad nauseum with Nogrod yesterday, being angry with Nilp today.

Another thing that troubles me is Jenny's absence. I know she has a valid reason, but there's a few things I'd like to ask her, mainly regarding her defence of Nilp.

As for Elu-sive Ancalime, if he doesn't turn up and vote, he's out on his ear anyway, I presume.

That rather worrying possibility has just occurred to me...

EDIT: I here refer to Mith's post above, not Lalaith's.

Well, thanks, Mith.

Okay. Possibility considered. But I still do not see SpM being decidedly Goose-ish.

Sorry, to elucidate my above post, I had of course looked at everyone in that group, but not in the context of their behaviour regarding Nilp.

I for one was working off Valier's list from yesterDay. :D

Mith has been calmer toDay which is nice, but doesn't necessarily indicate her innocence. I've actually started thinking that she's the Goose with the talk about that we'll see that she's an innocent if we kill her etc. Also, Haven't you ever suspected someone and then been truly surprised when they turned out to be innocent? We lynch people whom we strongly suspect to be Ducks every Day, that's the point of this all. Some of them are likely to be innocent, and since they all can't be Geese, it's possible that none of them is and therefore it isn't safe to make assumptions like that. I can't help thinking that you're the Goose who's hoping that we assume that the first innocent we lynch will be regarded as the Goose instead.


Both. :D With considering schedule restrictions, of course...

That said, I need to vote soon. I shall go doing some rereading now.

Well that is exactly what I imagine you will think if you lynch me. Why can't you open your mind? Are you a duck? I don't know about you .... again i am disappointed by someone reputed for their intelligence not using it.

Just a funny incidence I noted (partly remembered, so correct me, if I'm wrong) First Ang suspected Morm about "goose-talk". Then came Spm and suspected Ang on the same grounds. And as I was going through those Nilp-discussions, I found out, that Spm has made some "goose-talk" himself too (#67 & #99)! And as we add Mith here, then we just can't go on saying that talking from the point of view of the geese is a reason to suspect one or another.

Another nice one. Spm was really worried yesterday that the Owl-discussion would do damage to the village (it had alrerady done by his words), but now he seems very excited to get up a discussion of the Nightingale-work... So what is your point Spm? To talk, or not to talk about playing the gifted-roles?

I am not sure if it has anything to do with intelligence, Mithalwen.

We are (almost) all intelligent people here. Yet this game is never played perfectly. Innocents and Ducks alike get lynched.

You cannot expect to claim: "I am honestly innocent" and have everyone immediately believe you. That is not the point of the game. We all have different views. That is the point of discussion. Your almost passionate defence of yourself... it is distracting, it is pointless and it does not make you look more trustworthy at all.

Sometimes you are just wrong, intelligence and innocence disregarded. And sometimes you are right. Makes the world go round, you know.

Hmm, I wonder why you accuse me of Goosiness rather than Duckishness, Mith. Are you perhaps trying to put yourself in a better position in the event that I am lynched or killed (by you?) and proven innocent? Or are you the Goose yourself, as has been suggested?

But now onto a subject that I am wary to broach, but which I think we ought to discuss. I know that I eschewed talk of the Owl yesterday, but the night’s events have changed matters to a degree. The Hawk and the Nightingale can talk with each other. As can the Ducks, when deciding on their kill. That means, probably, that four people came to the assessment that last night’s target was a possible Owl. Now, it’s quite possible that this person was not the Owl, and they all got it wrong. But it’s also possible that they got it right. I don’t think that’s letting any big secrets out of the bag. The Ducks will have worked that out for themselves, I am sure. The Nightingale cannot protect the same person he or she protected last night. Which means that the person targeted by the Ducks last night is likely to be targeted again tonight. If they are the Owl, then valuable information may be lost.

In these circumstances, it seems to me that the Owl should declare themselves if (but only if) they know the identity of one Duck. That seems fairly obvious to me, so I’m sure it is something the Owl would have thought of anyway. I don't think that the Owl should step forward if they know only innocents, as he or she may not have been targetted last night at all. But what do people think?

Another possibility that occurred to me would be for the Hawk to step forward and declare the identity of the person the Nightingale protected last night. Then, if that person is the Owl, they could step forward and reveal all they know, as they will almost certainly die tonight anyway. This means that one of the Gifteds will be exposed, so it is not something that should be undertaken lightly and without serious consideration by all. If it is done, it’s better that the Hawk steps forward, rather than the Nightingale, because it is more important that the Nightingale remains hidden. And the Ducks may be wary of targeting the Hawk, since he or she might take one of them down. At worst, the Hawk would have a shot at the Ducks (and therefore be fulfilling his/her mission). At best, we would have a known innocent for a few Days at least. In either case, if the Owl was last night’s target, we would get their information before they die. The only drawback, of course, is that it is early in the game and so the Hawk has less chance of killing a Duck, if attacked, than he or she would have later in the game. That’s why I think that this is something we should discuss, before anyone does anything rash. There may well be other drawbacks which I have not thought of.

Thoughts?

Thoughts? I repeat Mr Orc that you are either being stupid or a GOOSE.

I can't bear this any longer . Gather round children, Aunt Mithalwen will tell you a story.

Eh? I never accused Ang of Goosiness. I rather agreed with him (yesterday) about mormegil being a possible Goose. Today, I commented on Cailin's thought that Ang might be the Goose. But then it occurred to me that, at this early stage at least, there was probably little merit in trying to spot the Goose. Better to look for Ducks (and possibly catch a Goose along the way).

Situations change, Nogrod. I am reacting to events. I have said my piece now anyway.

The Owl and the Birds


AN OWL, in her wisdom, counseled the Birds that when the acorn
first began to sprout, to pull it all up out of the ground and
not allow it to grow. She said acorns would produce mistletoe,
from which an irremediable poison, the bird-
lime, would be extracted and by which they would be captured.
The Owl next advised them to pluck up the seed of the flax, which
men had sown, as it was a plant which boded no good to them.
And, lastly, the Owl, seeing an archer approach, predicted that
this man, being on foot, would contrive darts armed with feathers
which would fly faster than the wings of the Birds themselves.
The Birds gave no credence to these warning words, but considered
the Owl to be beside herself and said that she was mad. But
afterwards, finding her words were true, they wondered at her
knowledge and deemed her to be the wisest of birds. Hence it is
that when she appears they look to her as knowing all things,
while she no longer gives them advice, but in solitude laments
their past folly.


I say Saucepanman, that I do not accuse you of being a Duck because I know you are not. I dreamed of you last night. Does anyone now need me toexplain why I thought you stupid, and then a GOOSE> I was disappointed because briefly I thought you might have "got it" and be trying to help.

Uh oh.

Right, the Goose. Meant as a distracting influence on the village yes? Well, even if the Goose themself hasn't even got involved in this argument, the idea itself is doing a fine job of it!

We're looking for Ducks, therefore we attempt to lynch those we think to be Ducks. Killing the Goose will do us little good right now as:
1) The Goose doesn't kill at Night, the Ducks do.
2) Even if we do get the Goose, we won't know.

And now with Mith's revelation I should say it is more imperative than ever that we concentrate on the Ducks. We are likely to lose our Owl toNight, we need to concentrate on those that can do real damage to the village.

Last time when someone called me single-minded I had found a wolf. :rolleyes: However, your coolness speaks for your favour... I don't know.

There has been quite much talk about morm and Roa as well, for example. I haven't had time to analyse Roa, but morm I did find somewhat questionable.

All these "duels" are strange, too. I've never seen so many people starting more or less fierce debates with each other, the latest addition to the trend being Kath and Sleepy.

My vote will follow in a few minutes.

edit: Whoa, cross-posted with Mith.

I dreamed of Nogrod on the first night. I knew we were likely to have a lot of online time together and after out amazing duels when I was a wolf and he the Seer I had to know if our roles were reversed.


Any more questions or can i let my heart rate settle? The game you should look at is Ang's reverse one. Being gifted overloads my circuits. I hoped to hold out another day and maybe night. I hope that I may get you another dream.... but I may have been protected last night.

So, Mith, are you saying you dreamt of Nogrod and SPM and found both innocent?

I really need to go now. I shall vote for

++mormegil

for he was my second suspect of toDay. Good Night!

I found the story when I was seeking subtle ways of indicating my status - no wonder I WAS IRRITATED WITH YOU ALL BLEATING ON about what I should do. My new sig is from the Illiad. A prayer to Athene, whose symbot is the OWL and which is the species name. I hoped that using sophistry and saying to choose wisely might help...

My uh oh meant I was just typing a meaningless post, refreshed and found Mith's revelation. I am so sorry, Mith. I had almost the same thing happening to me once and it was really blah.

You will live another Night, cause I doubt the Nightingale protected you. You were under too much fire yesterDay already, I think, to be a target for the Ducks. That is a comfort.

Mith you give us young ones too much credit! I've never read the Illiad!

That'll be it. Of course, Sauce will call her a Goose. Logically he'll be right. I don't stand with logic today.

Mith, you have been vilely slandered. I should have overcome my doubts and stood by you.

We now have

Mith-Owl, endorsed by me for a start
Nogrod-innocent
Sauce-pate-de-foie-gras
Lote-virtual innocent
Valier...plausible innocent

at best.

EDIT: I have read the Iliad, but got excited about the wrong signature-Mith's old one where she said something about booing...made me think Goose.

I have translated the Illiad!

I am just not very perceptive. :o

Edit: cross-posted with you, Ang, how does it follow -exactly- that SpM is the goose?

Gah! You're right. I am stupid. I should have spotted your hints. But I have "history" of thinking Seers to be Wolves.

I am an Orc of very little brain indeed. :rolleyes:

Still, it's possible that the Nightingale did not protect you last night. Indeed, it's quite probable since you came across as pretty suspicious and not at all Owlish yesterday (as far as I can see, anyway). I would wager that we'll get another dream out of you at least.

For now, however, back to the drawing board ...