**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**
I see where CRRT is savaged for this, in terms of some ending that ain't right. I'm only reaching the end of HoME IV, and know of the debate about how the Dwarves inexplicably entered Doriath, but should not have been able to do so, because of the Girdle of Melian.
But didn't she depart immediate at Thingol's murder, or is it not unreasonable to assume the idea of traitors among the Elves of Doriath, per severa earlier iterations. This is in earlier stories, but sometimes earlier stuff if not formally rejected was only omitted from CRRT's manuscript, and can be cut and pasted back in, such that you rely not solely an late HoME, ala FoG even from the all but discarded BoLT. mod note [ I removed 'How' as the first word in the title of the thread as I would rather the forum be responsible for posing the question than stating that it was so. -lindil [ December 30, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ] I have once again re-named this thread to allow and encourage pre-group project work on the Ruin of Doriath. Sorry for the double takeover Man of the Wold [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ] [ January 10, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ] |
If I follow you correctly, Man of the Wold, then you are proposing using BolT and HoME 4 to create our own Ruin of Doriath. This may well happen and has been mentioned offhandedly. We simply have not reached a place where we are actively brainstorming for the Ruin of Doriath.
Indeed the Fall of Gondolin has proved so complex that we will almost certainly look for some easy chapters for a while after it! also I know of no one here who thinks CJRT butchered the Silm chapter in question. I think he did quite well with the resources at hand and I for one am not one to rule using it as a basis for our chapter. He himself expresses reservations at having gone so far as to create up a couple of scenes from whole cloth, but to my mind and ear they ring true. The War of the Jewels [HoME XI] - pt 3 ch V [The Tale of Years] is needed to understand the full complexity of the situation JRRT left in the form of outlines for the Doriath chapter. [ December 30, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ] |
I was not suggesting but rather inquiring into the nature of the controversy.
Thanks, I recognize that it is not so one-sided. Perhaps, just improve on CRT's work based on what is in the Grey Annals and what not, which I have yet to read directly. |
I too, liked C.T's version of Doriath. Is there any infprmation on the sacking, apart form what's in Bolt 2 and The War of the Jewel's? Mor eimportantly the Tolkien intend for the Ent's to aid Beren's assualt against the Nogrodian Dwarves?
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Other than what's in XI and the hopelessly outdated version found in II, the only other accounts of the sacking of Doriath are probably the very compressed versions found in the Sketch of the Mythology and the Quenta Noldorinwa. As for the Ents, the evidence for their inclusion is from one of the Letters, though I don't recall the number.
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Just to let those who do not have [or have not read HoME 11] get some idea of the final picture I will try and provide a summary of what we are left with. CJRT collected all that could salvaged from JRRT's work [including scavenging the letters!]for the concluding sections in the Silm and placed them in the "tale of Years" section of HoME XI wherein he lists the long string of sketches for the resolution of the LQS [Later Quenta Silmarillion]. It is from this that CJRT drew much [but not all] of the inspiration for his version off the Ruin of Doriath. What JRRT did not postulate and CJRT [ with Guy Kay] invented to reconcile imbedded contradictions, was Thingol's murder by the Dwarves already in Menegroth. This explained how the Dwarves were able to enter the Girdle, which other wise was left unresolved by JRRT. He also removed Hurin's companions [ who are very much intact and likely to be involved somehow at least up to Hurin's recovering the nauglamir from Menegroth] and their bringing a hard to mengroth, CJRT reduced the hoard of Nargothrond/Glaurang to just the Nauglamir. I think the main thing we can do for this section is to mesh [ or rather preface] the Wanderings of Hurin into the Ruin as far as the texts will allow. It could be that bits of BoLT 2 will aid this. I have not really perused the problem in detail, leaving it till FOG is complete [at the earliest], other options are to peice together a RoD from JRRT's sketches, the Q30, sketch and BoLT. A truly daunting hodge podge and possibly fruitless undertaking. CJRT's version has many merits: - it removes a contradiction which JRRT never satisfactorily resolved. - It reads extremely well [imo], condensed though it is and is extremely plausible. - it is already written [!] and was for over a decade accepted as THE Ruin of Doriath, and still is for most folks who have not read HoME 2, 4 or 11. Personally, interesting topic though it is I probably will not be adding any more to the conversation till the group get's there. That being said though, we might as well make this an official **Ruin of Doriath speculation thread** if others however, want to continue exploring the possiblilities. [ January 09, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ] |
I think that the whole Ruin of Doriath mess may be profitably boiled down to two fundamental problems:
1. The conflict between "The Wanderings of Hurin" and all previous narratives; particularly, the point of transition from 'Wanderings' as the latest text to the 'Quenta' as the latest text (I believe CRT refers to this as a 'chasm' or some such). Tied into this problem is the whole section from Hurin in Nargothrond to Hurin in Doriath (the unwritten sections of 'Wanderings'). Christopher's solution was to more or less abandon 'Wanderings' and to rewrite the Q30 version. My inclination here is rather to keep 'Wanderings' and to adjust the Q30 and QS77 to fit, though of course that's much easier said than done. 2. The problem of the invasion of Doriath. As JRRT noted, but, infuriatingly, did not solve, a hostile army cannot invade Doriath as long as the Girdle of Melian is in place. The only indication from JRRT is that it must be contrived that Thingol at some point leaves Doriath and is slain. Christopher decided that this was an unworkable projected revision, and made up his own story. But the story that he invented elegantly and completely solves the problem. There is a good case for using his story (and it is allowed by our principles, if we deem all extant versions by JRRT unworkable). [ January 14, 2003: Message edited by: Aiwendil ] |
Ai Aiwendil, you are a good cook as it turned out. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
You had found exactly the two problems that this group most must solve for the project. In the first cases it seem to me that your choice is between a hard brake from full narrative to short summary or the writing of new material (wish is near the boundary of fan-fic) or the abandonment of parts of the full narrative (writing a summary?). In the second it is more the question to take CRRT "fan-fic" wish is indicated as not agreeing to JRRT last ideas or writing your own "fan-fic" out of the small hints that JRRT left. It will be very interesting to see were you end up with it. In the moment my choice would be the hard brake in the first case and Thingol killed outside Doriath in the second. But lets see what the discussion will bring up. Respectfully Findegil |
I have been perusing the Ruin of Doriath, now that it seems that Fall of Gondolin is in need of opinions to move foward.
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What I have in mind is the following: Use as Aiwnedil suggested, the Wanderings of Húrin as far as it can takes us, and then joined it with the Tale of the Nauglafing. 1. The Tale of the Nauglafing is of course very outdated. I would propose to revise it using the Quenta in Home 4. 2. How to deal with Thingol slaying? I would propose that we follow the Quenta to make that Thingol was slained when he was outside of Doriath, when the Dwarvish Army was coming. It solves the problem of the Girdle and leaves Menegroth opens for an assault. 3. Húrin. I think that this is the biggest problem in the whole Ruin of Doriath. Unfortunately we do not have, like in the Fall of Gondolin, a part where Húrin actually reaches Doriath, like Tuor did in Unfinished Tales. Using the Wanderings of Húrin, if we follow the story, it ends with Húrin leaving Brethil with no company and it is supposed that he will be going to Nargothrond to seek the treasure and then go to Menegroth. As Aiwendil posted, that is the gap that is very troublesome to us. Using the Wanderings, we can construct a narrative from Húrin leaving Angband to Húrin gaining some outlaws and heading towards Nargothrond. If we joined that with the last paragraphs of the Tale of Turambar, we have in some way a narrative with no gaps. It doesn't look as impossible as I once thought. [ August 23, 2003: Message edited by: Maédhros ] |
I have given this a lot of thought as well, and I think that in general my conclusions are the same as Maedhros's.
I agree that the best course with regard to the death of Thingol is to have him go to war beyond the borders and be slain. This is, at any rate, the latest wish of Tolkien on the matter (though obviously it was only a very rough idea). Christopher's version is, as I've said before, an elegant and well-contrived solution to the difficulty; but I'd rather stay as close as possible to JRRT's plot. Actually, we do have the scene in Lost Tales where Hurin enters Doriath. It is, if I recall correctly, placed at the end of the Tale of Turin rather than in the Tale of the Nauglafring. Of course, it is very different from the later versions - yet I think a lot of the writing might be salvaged and used to fill out our version. What I think is the real difficult point here is the fate of Hurin's outlaws. I do not like Christopher's solution here - simply to drop the outlaws entirely and reduce the treasure brought by Hurin down to the Nauglamir. It seems clear from 'Wanderings' that the outlaws were to be retained. On the other hand, I completely agree with Christopher that in the Q30 version, where the outlaws die in quarrels on the road, the gesture is completely ruined by Hurin's having to have Thingol's people bear the treasure into Menegroth and then cast it at his feet. A case could certainly be made for retaining the Q30 version, however inferior it is. But another solution would be this: retain the outlaws and have them go with Hurin to Doriath and cast the treasure at Thingol's feet, as in the old Tale. Hurin leaves in anger. But then, whereas in the Tale the outlaws fight with Thingol's people, we could have them simply forswear the treasure and leave Thingol's halls in peace. The weakness with such a course, naturally, is the completely fabricated plot point of the outlaws leaving in peace. But it has the virtue of retaining the role of the outlaws (which, by all indications, was never questioned by Tolkien) and avoiding the extreme awkwardness of the Q30 version. I would also certainly eliminate two points that seem to have been fabricated for the 77. First, return to the earlier story where the Nauglamir was wrought by the Dwarves out of the treasure of Nargothrond, rather than being an ancient artifact that lay in the hoard. Second, remove the moment where Melian lifts the spell of Morgoth from Hurin, since (unless I'm forgetting something) there is no indication that this was to occur. |
I agree with the propouse to take 'Húrins wanderings' and try to build the tow missing chapters out of HoME II, HoME IV and Sil '77 material.
I will try to add something to Aiwendils plot: When I remeber rightly, it was JRR Tolkien him self how noted that it would ruine the gesture, when Húrin must go to Doriath and ask for help in the tarnspprot of the treasure. So I think that we must retain the outlaws at least into Doriath. But if the outlaws are to go in peace from Menegroth, than I think they would best leave it in company with Húrin. Since of Húrins further aktions is nothing said, other than his death in the western see, you could left thier fate dubious as well. (I could writ a nice fan-fic about Húrins death, after finding Tours spear in Vinyamar and thier with recongince that he had brought ruin to Gondolin as well - but that doesn't belong here.) On the other hand we could also use Mîms crouse and the quarells on the road as solution for thier fate and only move it to the time after they left Menegroth. But that is agian a very riscy course to go. Posted by Aiwendil: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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I have now posted my Revised version of the Ruin of Doriath in the private forum. These were made in mind in trying to capture as most of the intended Tolkien ideas as possible. I have used basically the Tale of the Nauglafring and the Published Silmarillion in my versions.
I would have liked to have used more the QS30 but I think that because of it's size, it is not too useful, only as guidelines to the story. I made, as in the Quenta, that the messenger who comes to Beren and Lúthien to be Melian and not an unnamed one as in the QS77 or Huan in the Tale. Beren, as it is stated in the Letters 247: Quote:
I used some parts of the Tale, such as the detail of the fight between Beren and Naglandur because I felt that it would add more to the story. I retained the part that while Lúthien wearing the Silmaril, the sons of Fëanor would not assail them, because of the reference of The Tale of Years D1 Quote:
Lastly, I'm sure that my versions are full of errors, but it is my hope that they can be used as a guide to this section. |
Maedhros, I am sure that you had done a lot of hard and nice work for that version in the private forum. But I think that it wouldn't be good to start the work on the basis of a text hidden from public.
If you do that you will restrict the attendance of any discussion to the members of the project. That this forum is open for public shows that the project has as jet ever tried to do the work in public and take in as many thoughts of no-members (like me) as possible. As far as I have understood the project policy, only the ultimate refinements of the text had been done in the private forum. As it seemed to me, this was done only because of copyright restrictions against the posting of big parts of the actual text of the source books in an open forum. Especially in such an early stage of the development it would be nice to have the parts of the text discussed in front anybody. I could take the source -texts and try to do the same work you had done again and guess from your posts how do you composed the text. But how many no-members would do that? And it would be inventing the wheel for the 1001 time. I know that what I ask for is again a lot of work, since you have to take one of the source-texts and make it the basis text from which you than develop be deletions and addition (with source information). But it will be rewarded by a greater number of minds thinking about it and contribute to the development of the final version. In the moment that seems highly recommended since the number of active members of the project seems to be very small indeed. Respectfully Findegil |
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I realize, of course, that having the outlaws leave willingly is no closer to being valid than is the fight. Perhaps the best way to go would be (if we could manage it) to be ambiguous about the fate of the outlaws - "of the fate of Hurin's band no tale tells" or something of the sort. Quote:
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For the Green-elf situation, couldn't we just mention a small band of them with Beren? That way, both their aid is mentioned, and the fact that they were a sort of organized band, under Beren's leadership.
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Reasons for the Fight of the Outlaws in Menegroth
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Of course we have CT comments from the Tale of Years Quote:
I have searched in the Tale of Years for some indication about the outlaws but I have not found anyone in there. [ August 26, 2003: Message edited by: Maédhros ] [ August 26, 2003: Message edited by: Maédhros ] |
Aiwendil wrote:
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Let's try that out: Quote:
I think that would work, to let the fate of Asgon and his man dubious, but I see Meadhros point: Quote:
In the Quote abvoe we will leave out "with his man". (In my view on this spot should be a chapter brake , and for that I added Thingol in the next sentence, but that's not now the point.) Quote:
In addition I like to mention, that I can't think that a man like Asgon took part in the events in Thingols hall. It is clearly not Asgon how speaks to the king of Húrin as a "old and mad" man. That words sound more like Ragnir. The young man how is the opponent of Asgon in the conversations when the band is searching Húrin. It would be very nice to find a way, to make Asgons fate dubious, but in the moment I can't see any solution within the rules of the project. (In my privat view he is the comunicater of parts of the Narn.) Respectfully Findegil |
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We are engaged in a sort of surgery upon the narrative. No matter what we do, we cannot preserve every nuance, every subtlety of the Lost Tales. It is, of course, preferrable to preserve what we can; but there must be some casualties, and I fear that the specifics of the working of the curse upon the outlaws may be one of them. Quote:
I think Christopher is right that, had "Wanderings" gotten as far as Doriath, the fight in the caves would not have reappeared. Findegil wrote: Quote:
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Also, as we already acknowledged, the change is risky - perhaps a bit too risky. Remember, how severe an editorial change is doesn't always correspond simply to how many words were altered. In terms of plot, this is a major change with little textual support. Quote:
So I really think that the fight in Menegroth is out of place in the more mature Silmarillion. Quote:
It would, I think, be far preferrable to leave the fate of the outlaws uncertain. There are actually several ways to do this; the problem that I see with these ways is that none is quite uncertain enough to cover the wide range of reasonable fates. I will give this matter some thought. |
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Originally posted by Aiwendil
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Regarding the battle of the Outlaws in Menegroth, CT seems that it would have been abandoned. I think that CT instincts are better than mine in this so I would defer to him. But notice the interesting fact that CT states that the fight in Menegroth, not outside it. We could: 1. Leave their faith ambiguous as Aiwendil suggests. 2. We could use Findegil option of using the Quenta version to deal with the fate of the outlaws. Personally, I like Findegil’s option better because, we know from both the Tale and the Quenta that the outlaws die and that they were affected by the curse of Mîm. That being said, that does not mean however that in our versión we would state explicitly that all of the outlaws were killed, leaving open the idea that one of them could be Dírhaval or one who instructed some of the tales to him. Quote:
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Lindil wrote:
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Why not simply say that, hearing of the Dwarf army, he decides to go to war and he rides forth beyond the borders? |
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Would that fit with a later Silmarillion? Quote:
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Aiwendil posted
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He has also stated his doubts about trying to create a single official 'Silmarillion' at all. He felt he had to [on both counts], and did, and I do not think any of the proposals so far mentioned [the alterations of the death of Thingol that is, not additions from Wanderings of Hurin and Bolt and Q30]. The fact that he changed his mind does not alter what I consider 3 very important facts;
So far in every version suggested [I think] there are gaps were we would need to fan-fictionalize to maitain a coherent tale. I propose we think in terms of additions to the 77 Silm Ruin of Doriath- which may well need to result in a few minor subtractions. Such as[LIST][*]the additions of The wanderings of Hurin[*]Asgon and co. going to Nargothrond and getting the Nauglamir and some treasure to cast at Thingols feet, [*]like Aiwendil I see a battle with the outlaws as impossibly outdated. [*]I would love to see Melian lift the curse of Mim's treasure from the outlaws, but for the moment I am reluctant to countenance it, till I can read a version that does not have it, and see if I feel it's lack as a real thing, not just an item on a wish-list.[*] I think the idea of Asgon becoming the cource of the material [subbing his name in the Dirhavel/Aelfwine material?] is possible, but has Fan-Fiction liabilities. However JRRT seemed to be clearly heading in that direction as Asgon is the thread that ties Turin's ramapage in Dor-Lomin to Hurin, and he seemed to intent on having the outlaws [of whom Asgon was pre-eminent] go with Hurin to Doriath. CJRT did a masterful job of turning a sinlge reference to Ents at the destruction of the host of Dwarves into marrative, so, again I say we keep it. -------------- Ultimately I see this DoD issue [especially Thingol's death] as a question of 2 competing views; 1- do we want to imrove on the 77 and have the best possible [and longest/largest] literary 'Silmarillion'. Or 2- the most 'pure' 'Silm' using JRRT's older ideas and material over CJRT's even when it is in total chaos. The Principles and stated member goals seem to allow for both, so we have to choose. I will [though it is rare for me in general] go for 1 over 2. [ August 27, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ] |
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All this fits much better to the story of the Q30, were the dwarves ploted to gain the treasure and seemed to make a sharp discussion with Thingol about it and than were driven away without payment. We are given also part the argumentation of the dwarves /Q33/: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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Lindil wrote:
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Christopher Tolkien states not only that he regrets certain of the changes he made but also that a far less radical version is probably possible. This is the view that has the benefit of years of study and insight. At one time I thought that we would need to use Christopher's version; but I had grossly overestimated the amount of editorial reworking that would be required to make something sensible out of Tolkien's writings alone. Our principles allow us to use text created by Christopher Tolkien but they certainly never compel us to do so. The preference, of course, is to use JRRT's text - and plot - wherever possible. The situation with the death of Thingol can be taken care of simply by following the note suggesting that he went to war beyond the border and leaving the details ambiguous. For the quarrel of Thingol and the Dwarves, we have at the very least the Q30 account. The one real problem that we are left with, in my view, is the fate of the outlaws. But we would be left with this in any case, since no one (as far as I know) is suggesting that we follow the '77 in dropping the outlaws. Lindil wrote: Quote:
I admit, it would make a good story. But I think introducing it would be stepping a little over the bounds of editorialization. Quote:
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But perhaps we should put the Ruin of Doriath aside and focus on finishing the Fall of Gondolin. What we do not need is to be deeply embroiled in the two most troublesome chapters at the same time. |
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But as it is, the beginning of the discussion were anything is possible, were the storyline is under discussion and were the mayor problems are solved is the most interesting part. The hard and tieresome discussion of little bits and details of textual changes are only done by people really devotet to the task. Respectfully Findegil |
I will say only a fwe things which I think will cover the many points.
As for a need to consider resign maedrhos, see a new thread about to appear in the Private Forum. Re: all other participants prefering position 2 over 1, this is hardly a suprise to me. and it is certainly a positiion for which a strong argument can be made. As Aiwendil said, and I completely agree the priniciples allow us to go in either direction, but do not force our hand in either directionn. As for Aiwendil's and Findegil's wise suggestion that the focus stay on FoG, it makes perfect sense. I only need apologize for hopping on what was meant as a stop-gap measure by Maedhros [this being something for the rest of the group to chew on] while I finish giving my thoughtsd and input on the FoG. So the ball is squarely back in my court. As for the FoG, again see my soon to appear thread in the Private Forum. Thanks for your patience. |
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And yes, I feel that we should finish the FOG first, but I had finish my first draft version of ROD that I had to post it. The good thing is that I got a lot of feedback with some nagging issues on it, and I think that the next version will be an improvement. |
No need to apologise - It is an honest difference of opinion.
I, and others have said before [I think Michael Martinez may have first brought the concept to my attention] that there is no one right way. there are room for many alternative Silmarillions. |
Either way, we're going to have some disgruntled people if we go with choice 1 or choice 2, so we have to come up with a compromise that makes most of the members happy. I for one, kind of like the first choice, but I can understand where all those who like the second choice better are coming from. Why don't we try a little bit of both? We'll try to keep to the "pure" Silmarillion whenever we can, but in the cases where CJRT's version is better organized, we'll go with that.
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Respectfully Findegil |
Heaven's Sake, my little inquiry really took off, while the family and I were traversing the hills of Ithilien and watching the Bard's unfortunate re-vision of what the word "Elf" has commonly come to be seen as.
I think there is much time to figure out this tricky issue. It is hardly the sort of thing for anyone's getting bent out of shape, as other more obvious project's continue. There may be no perfect answer, and discrete subtly may be needed. CRT's words and techniques may have to be accepted as a starting point as Lindil seems suggest, and then see what else can be properly made to work with minimal amending of a Tolkien's text. This may me a case where a "foot"note or other device is called for that alludes to the uncertainty and generalness of the account given and notes alternative tales. Even JRRT's finished work would present two or more variants for explaining a certain even or development. [The "---" tell that .... While it is said by the "----", rather ...] Personally, I can report that I'm currently plodding into HoME X, and keeping up with Letters as I go, though I may also read HoME XII Pt. 1, before going much further with the "Later Silmarillion." So, I hope to be qualified for the private forum and real contribution, soon. |
Good to see you again, Man-of-the-Wold.
You are right that we have a lot of time to think about things and need not get all worked up about them right now. Still, I think we've made a lot of progress in the above posts, in terms of identifying critical issues and difficult points (if not in solving them). You are right also that there is no perfect approach. I agree very strongly with Lindil's point that there is no one right way; there is room for many alternative Silmarillions. But I still subscribe to the view that Christopher Tolkien's version of the Ruin of Doriath should not be used as the basis for our version. A footnote or something similar may very well be in order. [ September 02, 2003: Message edited by: Aiwendil ] |
Aiwendil, I bow to the light of your wisdom.
Perhaps it is best to merely keep CRT's effort in mind, but otherwise put it aside for a while. We should start anew with whole cloth and make it into a quilt of real JRRT text from the Quenta Noldorina, Lost Tales and what not. I don't know of anything in the later tales that would make traitors among the Doriathrim so inconceivable. With the Silmirils came the Doom of the Mandos. [I'am increasingly of the mind, though, that CRT's edited [I]Silmirillion[I/] is as good as anything that his father might have done in the 1950s---as intended---had he gotten it together, at that time. The obvious exception would have been the true completion of the later chapters, for which CRT prudently chose quick, if sometimes dirty resolutions. Those chapters were evidently never ever really worked on again, since the 1930s, under any scheme. And the later schemes of JRRT were too ambitious and was never going to approach publishable form. By 1977, the publishers had waited long enough.] [ September 08, 2003: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ] |
(Sorry for replying so late Findegil)
We have agreed that some "versions" of the Silmarillion have areas that are better organized than others. For example, one "version" could have a better Ainulindalë, whereas the other could have a better Ruin of Doriath. (I mean "better," as in more organized). We could kind of line up the different parts, by looking over them, figure out which ones make more sense, are better organized, etc. and use those. That way, we won't necessarily have to stick with one version all the way through, we will just pick out the better-organized parts from each one and compile those together. (Have I made any sense? Forgive me, I'm typing this at about 11:25 PM, and I'm on a lot of caffeine). |
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