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Moonraker 08-02-2014 02:19 PM

Gandalf, Moria, and Arrest
 
The leadership of Gandalf was questioned by the Company when he decided to choose the dark and dangerous path into Moria. At this point, should Aragorn have placed Gandalf under arrest and taken over the leadership of the Company to help protect the Ring?

Inziladun 08-02-2014 02:34 PM

Is this a serious question?

Gandalf was the accepted leader not only of the Fellowship, but as far as Aragorn was concerned, the struggle against Sauron. Aragorn had been a pupil and friend of Gandalf for many years. He questioned the decision to go to Moria both out of a personal bad memory of a prior journey, and a foreboding that Gandalf would meet some peril there. His reluctance was not based on any lack of faith in Gandalf as a leader or a guide.

And also, by what authority could an "arrest" have been made? That's lunacy. At most, any member of the company who wished was free to stop following Gandalf and go their own way. It's notable that none did so. Gandalf retained their trust even under the direst of circumstances.

Moonraker 08-02-2014 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inziladun (Post 693560)
Is this a serious question?

Gandalf was the accepted leader not only of the Fellowship, but as far as Aragorn was concerned, the struggle against Sauron. Aragorn had been a pupil and friend of Gandalf for many years. He questioned the decision to go to Moria both out of a personal bad memory of a prior journey, and a foreboding that Gandalf would meet some peril there. His reluctance was not based on any lack of faith in Gandalf as a leader or a guide.

And also, by what authority could an "arrest" have been made? That's lunacy. At most, any member of the company who wished was free to stop following Gandalf and go their own way. It's notable that none did so. Gandalf retained their trust even under the direst of circumstances.

I believe every member of the Company, including Frodo, were against taking the road into Moria. Even Celeborn thought this road was folly and needless. Aragorn, as future King of Gondor, had as much authority to arrest Gandalf as anyone. The only thing that mattered was the safety of the Ring. Your ''lunacy'' comment was offensive, but that is just you. The path into Moria was seen as lunacy by others. Aragorn even warned Gandalf that this choice could lead to his own doom, which it did. Had Gandalf known of the Balrog, he would not have chosen this road.

Aiwendil 08-02-2014 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonraker
Aragorn, as future King of Gondor, had as much authority to arrest Gandalf as anyone.

Which is to say, none.

Moonraker 08-02-2014 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aiwendil (Post 693562)
Which is to say, none.

The fate of the Ring was the only thing that mattered. Aragorn could have declared that as of now he makes all the decisions and will lead the Company elsewhere, and not through Moria. He may have had no legal power to have Gandalf arrested at the gate of Moria, but that would have changed once he was sworn in as King of Gondor.

Belegorn 08-02-2014 03:43 PM

Even if they wanted to, none of them would be able to arrest Gandalf. None were forced to follow Gandalf.

Formendacil 08-02-2014 04:02 PM

Let's imagine, for one absurdly out-of-character second, that Aragorn WOULD have considered "arresting Gandalf" and/or asserting himself as the mutinous new leader of the company. Even had he already become King of Gondor and Arnor, or had the quest somehow waited until he was, this would still, as Aiwendil so succinctly put it, none of the authority required to arrest Gandalf.

Authority, never mind the actual ability.

Gandalf was a subject of neither the Kingdom of Arnor nor Gondor, over which Aragorn's writ extended. He was, in point of fact, an emissary of the Valar, which, if we continue this line of thought, still leaves him a foreign national--and a foreign national rather in the diplomatic service.

Beyond this, when at the walls of Moria, the company was not in the realms of Gondor or Arnor. Depending on where one draws the exact line, they were either still in Hollin or they were across the threshold into Moria. If one takes the first position, which I incline towards, then they were in what was essentially noman's land.

I seem to recall it being suggested (I cannot recall the text--possibly the Epilogue?) that, by his marriage to Arwen, Aragorn's heirs would inherit the remaining tracts of land still belonging to the High Elves in Middle-earth, namely Lindon, Rivendell, and Eregion (all under the possession of the House of Finwë, which would be remain solely represented in her heirs after the passing of Elrond, Galadriel, and the eventually death/passing of Elladan and Elrohir).

However, this had not happened at the time of the Fellowship. Hollin was still, at that time, a vacant kingdom under either the nominal lordship of the Heir of Celebrimbor (presumably Elrond, the next-of-kin as the nearest descendent of Fingolfin, who was Fëanor's heir after the exhaustion of his own line) or would have been kingdomless, but part of the greater domains of the High King of Eldar (depending on the tradition one accepts for Gil-galad's parentage, either Elrond or Galadriel). Either way, it is clear from the officially defined boundaries of Arnor--themselves not set until half an Age after the fall of Eregion, that Hollin was considered beyond-the-borders of Arnor, and thus outside the law of her king.

If, however, we stretch the borders of Khazad-dûm beyond the doors to include the doorstep, Aragorn is STILL not king of that land, and even less likely to rule it, since I don't think he was going to be a polygamous king with a second consort wedded to the only daughter of Thorin III (and that's assuming that Dwarves can inherit through the female line--people seem to assume this of Fíli and Kíli, but I don't recall it ever saying in any text that Thorin Oakenshield's sister-sons were the Heirs of the Durin after him).

Gimli, perhaps, as the ranking Dwarf (in all Moria, though they did not know it) could have done so, but we all know that he was on Gandalf's side for going IN to Moria.

Moonraker 08-02-2014 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belegorn (Post 693564)
Even if they wanted to, none of them would be able to arrest Gandalf. None were forced to follow Gandalf.

To be frank, I always thought Tolkein wanted the journey through Moria for the excitement factor, much more than the endless trekking on land like in the Hobbit. He was prepared to put Gandalf's own reputation on the line to ensure that the Company did go though Moria, and not via other safer means.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Formendacil (Post 693564)
Let's imagine, for one absurdly out-of-character second, that Aragorn WOULD have considered "arresting Gandalf" and/or asserting himself as the mutinous new leader of the company. Even had he already become King of Gondor and Arnor, or had the quest somehow waited until he was, this would still, as Aiwendil so succinctly put it, none of the authority required to arrest Gandalf.

Authority, never mind the actual ability.

Had it got to a heated argument (which it almost did) between Aragorn and Gandalf on taking the road to Moria, Aragorn could have made the case that he was putting the fate of the quest in great peril, and that he would take over the leadership if Gandalf did not back down. Supposing Gandalf did not back down, then Aragorn may have stated that once sworn in as King of Gondor he would not forget this encounter and would press charges on Gandalf on grounds of placing the fate of Middle Earth at risk (i.e. treason).

This charge would be far fetched to execute, especially if the Company did just fine in Moria, but nevertheless that is what the Moonraker likes, to stretch the realms of possibility to the limits.

Belegorn 08-02-2014 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonraker (Post 693561)
I believe every member of the Company, including Frodo, were against taking the road into Moria. Even Celeborn thought this road was folly and needless.

Celeborn may have thought so, but Galadriel admonished him nevertheless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FotR, Bk. 2, ch. 7
He would be rash indeed that said that thing <...> Needless were none of the deeds of Gandalf in life.

Let us go back to what happened. Gandalf recalled that "Aragorn was against it, until the pass over the mountains had at least been tried." [ch. 4] They tried and they failed. Boromir suggested they go south by the Gap of Rohan but Gandalf told him that as long as the Ring was with them they could not because there was Saruman in waiting. Besides, when Boromir compared Moria to a stronghold of Sauron Gandalf admonished him in the following manner:

Quote:

Originally Posted by FotR, bk. 2, ch. 4, p. 354
I alone of you have ever been in the dungeons of the Dark Lord, and only in his older and lesser dwelling in Dol Guldur. Those who pass the gates of Barad-dûr do not return.

He would not lead them into Moria if there was no way out. Even though he did not make it, he got them out in the end. Gimli was not averse to going through Moria, though Aragorn and Boromir were. However, Gandalf said it best I think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gandalf to the Company
the question is: who will follow me, if I lead you there?

Aragorn pointedly replied, "You followed my lead almost to disaster in the snow, and have said no word of blame."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonraker
not via other safer means

But were the other, watched ways, really safer?

Moonraker 08-02-2014 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belegorn (Post 693567)

But were the other, watched ways, really safer?

All roads were being watched, so Moria was never going to be the safest option in any case. Gimli was not against going to Moria, but he was biased as a dwarf to want to go there for personal reasons (Balin, Mithril, the legend of Moria etc), and not for reasons in context of the quest.

Inziladun 08-02-2014 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonraker (Post 693569)
All roads were being watched, so Moria was never going to be the safest option in any case. Gimli was not against going to Moria, but he was biased as a dwarf to want to go there for personal reasons (Balin, Mithril, the legend of Moria etc), and not for reasons in context of the quest.

But there was the possibility of Dwarves from Erebor still being in Moria. What's better, the potential at least for some friendly faces, or a long trek through the wilderness that took one nearer and nearer to Isengard?

If there had been a better way to go, Aragorn would have suggested one. Boromir's alternatives were logically shot down, leaving Moria the best option.

Moonraker 08-02-2014 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inziladun (Post 693571)

If there had been a better way to go, Aragorn would have suggested one. Boromir's alternatives were logically shot down, leaving Moria the best option.

They could have called on the help of the Eagles for safe passage to Lorien. Also, Rivendell had steeds available that the Nine could not rival. Not that Tolkein would have wanted that, it would have killed the story, and the plot.

Belegorn 08-02-2014 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonraker (Post 693566)
Aragorn could have made the case that he was putting the fate of the quest in great peril

Aragorn already made the case that he himself had already put them all in great peril and Gandalf did not even use it against him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FotR, bk. 2, ch. 4
You followed my lead almost to disaster in the snow, and have said no word of blame.

Recall what happened so that debate was halted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aragorn cried out in dismay.
The Wargs have come west of the Mountains!

So Gandalf's argument was already coming to pass. They should not go on longer watched roads. Already they were set upon and they were not even making for the Gap of Rohan!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gandalf to the Company
The hunt is up! Even if we live to see the dawn, who now will wish to journey south by night with the wild wolves on his tail?

Wolves, orcs, birds watching the land, and even Saruman was out and about. So imagine that they are beset in the south by Orcs and Wargs and out comes Saruman as he did before when Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas were in the south searching for Merry and Pippin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TTT, Bk. 3, chs. 2, 5
Gimli looked up, and there just on the edge of the firelight stood an old bent man, leaning on a staff, and wrapped in a great cloak; his wide-brimmed hat was pulled down over his eyes. <...> You certainly did not see me <...> therefore I must guess that you saw Saruman.

Saruman has armies and is himself a Maia as Gandalf noted, "reckoned as a lord and captain Saruman has grown very strong." [TTT, ch. 5, p. 119] Should they make south, as Boromir wished, they would not only lengthen their journey and have greater preparations made for their capture, but they would already be on the run from the Enemy by night and by day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonraker
Moria was never going to be the safest option in any case

If you choose to assume the Balrog and his band of Orcs are a greater threat than Saruman and his armies who're looking for the Ring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonraker
They could have called on the help of the Eagles for safe passage to Lorien

So far as I know the Eagles were not simply called upon to do Gandalf or anyone else's bidding.

Moonraker 08-02-2014 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belegorn (Post 693573)
If you choose to assume the Balrog and his band of Orcs are a greater threat than Saruman and his armies who're looking for the Ring.

The Balrog was the deadliest of the elf banes, save Sauron himself, as Legolas put it. So in this context, Gandalf would not have wished an encounter with a deadlier Maiar such as the Balrog of Morgoth than Saruman or the Witch King. The Company were also beset with other dangers, such as trolls, uruks, Gollum, and the uncertain dark path through the maze of Moria that may have had a dead end to trap them. Wolves or no wolves, Moria was not a safer option.

I cannot imagine Elrond supporting the road through Moria either. I seem to imagine him saying something like, ''I do not call this good counsel. Moria is a dark and unknown quantity to us, and we have no certainty that there is a way out of that accursed realm''. Sounds similar to what Aragorn said. If I was just an ordinary man or hobbit, I would not have followed Gandalf into Moria.

Zigûr 08-02-2014 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belegorn (Post 693573)
If you choose to assume the Balrog and his band of Orcs are a greater threat than Saruman and his armies who're looking for the Ring.

No one knew that there was a Balrog in Moria, however. They knew that there was something but not what it was.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonraker (Post 693572)
They could have called on the help of the Eagles for safe passage to Lorien.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belegorn (Post 693573)
So far as I know the Eagles were not simply called upon to do Gandalf or anyone else's bidding.

Moreover, how could Gandalf have simply "called on the help of the Eagles"? The only reason Gwaihir came to Isengard was because Radagast sent him. Later, around the time of the Council of Elrond, Radagast had disappeared. So I don't see how the Eagles were an option out in the wilderness. They appeared at other times when they were sent by someone else who had access to them.

As was established by Elrond, no one was under any obligation to do anything except Frodo himself, so I don't see how trying to force the issue by coercing Gandalf would have achieved anything. Wouldn't Aragorn "arresting" Gandalf (as implausible as the notion is in itself) have completely contradicted the fact that in the end it was Frodo who really had the final say in what happened?

Andsigil 08-03-2014 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonraker (Post 693559)
The leadership of Gandalf was questioned by the Company when he decided to choose the dark and dangerous path into Moria. At this point, should Aragorn have placed Gandalf under arrest and taken over the leadership of the Company to help protect the Ring?

Wait... what?

You're asking if Aragorn should have (...ahem...) arrested his longtime friend of about 60 years because they disagreed about a route?

I was in the army, and I never thought of arresting someone I knew because they had a route or strategy different than mine; that kind of measure is saved for things like war crimes.

Moonraker 08-03-2014 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andsigil (Post 693579)
Wait... what?

You're asking if Aragorn should have (...ahem...) arrested his longtime friend of about 60 years because they disagreed about a route?

I was in the army, and I never thought of arresting someone I knew because they had a route or strategy different than mine; that kind of measure is saved for things like war crimes.

Did you read all the previous posts before posting the above? Aragorn had a duty to protect the Ring, with his future as King of Gondor at stake. Friendships were to be swept to one side, and the most important decision made as to how the Ring may be protected.

Granted, Aragorn was not Boromir, who almost certainly would have caused mutiny within the Company much earlier if he were held in the same regard as Aragorn. But Aragorn needed to see things in context of completing the quest, and saving Middle Earth, and if that mean't rejecting the road into Moria, then so be it. Had he then asked the Company to vote for who they would have followed, most likely it would have been Aragorn, not Gandalf, unless Gandalf repented.

In the end, Aragorn & Boromir backed down and went with the plan of going through Moria after the wolves made an appearance. That really saved Gandalf from being cast aside as being respected leader of the Company. Gandalf, being a powerful Maiar, may have had full confidence in confronting the horrors of Moria, but none of the others (save Gimli) did and would have not gone in but for the wolves.

Tuor in Gondolin 08-03-2014 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beregorn
But were the other, watched ways, really safer?
Seems like perhaps the safest, fastest route would be to quickly go back from
Rivendell to the Grey Havens (while the nazgul are in disarray and horseless).
Then take a ship (hugging the coast---it's a medieval world traveling wise, so
traveling by sea near the coast tends to be the fastest and safest way to travel.
Go past the Isen (no further because of the threat from Corsairs) and then either travel across south Rohan (hugging the White Mountains) or cross Andrast and thru south Gondor. Cross the Anduin and then perhaps go around south Mordor or through another pass. Biggest immediate problems are crossing the Great River and dealing with Rohan or Gondor authorities---but they'd have Gandalf, Aragorn, and Boromir.

Andsigil 08-03-2014 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonraker (Post 693581)
Did you read all the previous posts before posting the above? Aragorn had a duty to protect the Ring, with his future as King of Gondor at stake. Friendships were to be swept to one side, and the most important decision made as to how the Ring may be protected.

Granted, Aragorn was not Boromir, who almost certainly would have caused mutiny within the Company much earlier if he were held in the same regard as Aragorn. But Aragorn needed to see things in context of completing the quest, and saving Middle Earth, and if that mean't rejecting the road into Moria, then so be it. Had he then asked the Company to vote for who they would have followed, most likely it would have been Aragorn, not Gandalf, unless Gandalf repented.

In the end, Aragorn & Boromir backed down and went with the plan of going through Moria after the wolves made an appearance. That really saved Gandalf from being cast aside as being respected leader of the Company. Gandalf, being a powerful Maiar, may have had full confidence in confronting the horrors of Moria, but none of the others (save Gimli) did and would have not gone in but for the wolves.

You can attempt to explain this away as much as you want, but the fact remains that you began this thread by jumping (pole vaulting!) to the option of arrest (out in the wilderness, with no means of enforcement, no less)- as if that were the only option.
"Let's see... which way can we go?"
"Well, south toward Isengard, or through Moria. I say Moria."
"You're under arrest. Turn around and put your hands behind your back. Uh... Boromir- you and Legolas tie him up."

On a side note, as I replied to this thread again, I realized that the forum may not have a sufficient variety of emoticons to further reflect a writer's feelings.

Moonraker 08-03-2014 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin (Post 693582)
Seems like perhaps the safest, fastest route would be to quickly go back from
Rivendell to the Grey Havens (while the nazgul are in disarray and horseless).
Then take a ship (hugging the coast---it's a medieval world traveling wise, so
traveling by sea near the coast tends to be the fastest and safest way to travel.
Go past the Isen (no further because of the threat from Corsairs) and then either travel across south Rohan (hugging the White Mountains) or cross Andrast and thru south Gondor. Cross the Anduin and then perhaps go around south Mordor or through another pass. Biggest immediate problems are crossing the Great River and dealing with Rohan or Gondor authorities---but they'd have Gandalf, Aragorn, and Boromir.


Whichever road they took, was there any realistic possibility of this being kept hidden from Sauron & Saruman? Both would have had spies covering all routes, and both would have assumed Gandalf was taking the Ring to Minas Tirith. They may as well have been escorted by a large army to Lorien if there was no hope of secrecy. The events in Moria would have certainly rang alarm bells in the Dark Tower as to the whereabouts of the Ring pretty quick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andsigil (Post 693583)
You can attempt to explain this away as much as you want, but the fact remains that you began this thread by jumping (pole vaulting!) to the option of arrest (out in the wilderness, with no means of enforcement, no less)- as if that were the only option.

I have dealt with this in other posts earlier, so I do not wish to repeat myself.

Andsigil 08-03-2014 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonraker (Post 693584)
I have dealt with this in other posts earlier, so I do not wish to repeat myself.

"Dealing with" it in your original post would have been much better. As carpenters say: measure twice and cut once.

Moonraker 08-03-2014 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zigûr (Post 693578)
No one knew that there was a Balrog in Moria, however. They knew that there was something but not what it was.


Moreover, how could Gandalf have simply "called on the help of the Eagles"? The only reason Gwaihir came to Isengard was because Radagast sent him. Later, around the time of the Council of Elrond, Radagast had disappeared. So I don't see how the Eagles were an option out in the wilderness. They appeared at other times when they were sent by someone else who had access to them.

As was established by Elrond, no one was under any obligation to do anything except Frodo himself, so I don't see how trying to force the issue by coercing Gandalf would have achieved anything. Wouldn't Aragorn "arresting" Gandalf (as implausible as the notion is in itself) have completely contradicted the fact that in the end it was Frodo who really had the final say in what happened?

Only at Rivendell could word have been sent to get the Eagles on board further down the road, and I doubt Gwaihir would have refused to help Gandalf, having saved him twice before.

Was Frodo really in charge of the fate of the Ring? He was only the Ring bearer, not the leader of the Company. Also Elrond said other members of the Company could handle the Ring, if in great need. I don't recall Gandalf saying, ''Let the Ring bearer decide'', as in the movies?

Belegorn 08-03-2014 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonraker (Post 693574)
So in this context, Gandalf would not have wished an encounter with a deadlier Maiar such as the Balrog of Morgoth than Saruman or the Witch King.

They did not know of a Balrog being in Moria. Both Aragorn and Gandalf had passed through Moria without encountering the Balrog before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FotR, Bk. 2, ch. 4
Yet it will not be the first time that I have been to Moria. I sought there long for Thráin son of Thrór after he was lost.

<...>

I too once passed the Dimrill Gate, but though I also came out again, the memory is very evil. I do not wish to enter Moria a second time.

I do not think in any case that Aragorn's beef is to not pass through Moria to avoid facing the Balrog. He did not know what was there, nor do I expect he thought such a being was living in the halls of Moria.

You say that, "the most important decision made as to how the Ring may be protected." Yet Aragorn seems to be placing his concern for Gandalf over the Ring in this instance when it concerned a possible route through Moria.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FotR, Bk. 2, ch. 4
It is not of the Ring, nor of us others that I am thinking now, but of you, Gandalf.

Gandalf told the Company "I would not lead you into Moria if there were no hope of coming out again." [p. 354] This was in the context of Boromir having compared Moria to a stronghold of Sauron. Gandalf had no inkling so far as I know that it was a stronghold of the Balrog, nor did anyone else. Take note of his speculations:

Quote:

Originally Posted by FotR, Bk. 2, ch. 4
But most of the Orcs of the Misty Mountains were scattered or destroyed in the Battle of Five Armies. The Eagles report that Orcs are gathering again from afar; but there is a hope that Moria is still free.

There is even a chance that Dwarves are there, and that in some deep hall of his fathers, Balin son of Fundin may be found.

What he thought was possible was that Moria could be free from a plague of Orcs based on certain reports he was given and that Dwarves could be there. Gandalf wanted to go under the Mountains to cover their tracks and he thought it would be the least expected route the Enemy would consider them taking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonraker
I doubt Gwaihir would have refused to help Gandalf, having saved him twice before

Help indeed, but recall the conversation between Gandalf and Gwaihir when the former had need of a ride after having been saved from Orthanc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FotR, Bk. 2, ch. 2
'How far can you bear me?"

"Many leagues," said he, "but not to the ends of the earth. I was sent to bear tidings not burdens."

"Then I must have a steed on land<...> for I have never had such a need of haste before."

"Then I will bear you to Edoras<...>for that is not very far off."

In the end, Frodo's journey would lead to Mordor anyway, the stronghold of Sauron, but you would have Gandalf arrested for deciding to lead them through Moria. "I would not lead you into Moria if there were no hope of coming out again." [p. 354] said Gandalf. There were concerns about Moria, but it would be a means to disappear from off the grid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonraker
Aragorn had a duty to protect the Ring

The job was ultimately Frodo's. The others were in the Company until they came to their respective destinations, the two Dúnedain to Gondor for instance. Elrond said "I will choose you companions to go with you , as far as they will or fortune allows <...> They are willing to go at least to the passes of the Mountains, and maybe beyond." [FotR, ch. 3, p. 330] Aragorn was going to help aid in the wars of Gondor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonraker
They may as well have been escorted by a large army to Lorien if there was no hope of secrecy.

Elrond claimed "your hope is in speed and secrecy." [p. 330] which may also account for Gandalf's choice to take the road of Moria, as it cut through the mountains and the Enemy would hardly be expecting it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FotR, Bk. 2, ch. 4
I thought from the beginning, when I first considered this journey, that we should try it. ~ Gandalf

Speed and secrecy was the way to go. No protracted journey, loud and blustering, "The Company took little gear of war, for their hope was in secrecy not in battle." [Ch. 3, p. 334]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonraker
Was Frodo really in charge of the fate of the Ring? He was only the Ring bearer, not the leader of the Company.

I think Elrond's final charge to Frodo may be of some help.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ring Goes South; Elrond's charge to Frodo
The Ring-bearer is setting out on the Quest of Mount Doom. On him alone is any charge laid; neither to cast away the Ring, nor to deliver it to any servant of the Enemy nor indeed to let any handle it, save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need. The others go with him as free companions, to help him on his way. You may tarry, or come back, or turn aside into other paths, as chance allows. The further you go, the less easy will it be to withdraw; yet no oath or bond is laid on you to go further than you will.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonraker
Gandalf, being a powerful Maiar, may have had full confidence in confronting the horrors of Moria, but none of the others (save Gimli) did and would have not gone in but for the wolves.

Do you remember that chapter in The Hobbit titled, Out of the Frying-pan into the Fire? This seems like what you are suggesting they decided to do. Flee Wolves to face the Balrog and his horde of Orcs in Moria.

"Wolves or Balrog? I'd rather take my chances with that Balrog. To Moria!" :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonraker
I seem to imagine him saying something like

He did say, "I can foresee very little of your road; and how your task is to be achieved I do not know." [Ch. 3, p. 330]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zigûr
No one knew that there was a Balrog in Moria, however. They knew that there was something but not what it was.

Agreed. Gandalf did not even know it was a Balrog when they engaged each other on opposite sides of a door in Moria! [pp. 387-388]

Legolas 08-03-2014 12:04 PM

An absurd idea; moving this to N&N. Not sure anyone should get too worked up about this.

Please keep in mind:
Quote:

Accept the fact that others have different opinions. Read them and think about them – you just might learn something! If you don’t agree, just state your own opinion; you don’t have to correct everyone else’s or argue until they agree with you.

Moonraker 08-03-2014 12:53 PM

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Originally Posted by Legolas (Post 693590)
An absurd idea; moving this to N&N. Not sure anyone should get too worked up about this.

Please keep in mind:

If Aragorn was of the same temperament and mind set as Boromir, he would have pushed for mutiny and the arrest of Gandalf if the latter did not change his mind on taking the Company through Moria. It is the Wolves who really saved the day for Gandalf generally speaking. Thankfully, Aragorn was not so easily corrupted by the Ring, and was much stronger mentally than Bormomir to be able to resist the Ring.

Inziladun 08-03-2014 01:11 PM

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Originally Posted by Moonraker (Post 693594)
Thankfully, Aragorn was not so easily corrupted by the Ring, and was much stronger mentally than Bormomir to be able to resist the Ring.

Aragorn's trust of Gandalf had nothing to do with the Ring. He had simply been a friend of Gandalf for a long time, and had also no doubt been instructed by Elrond and the Rivendell elves of Gandalf's importance to the effort against Sauron.

Moonraker 08-03-2014 01:20 PM

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Originally Posted by Inziladun (Post 693596)
Aragorn's trust of Gandalf had nothing to do with the Ring. He had simply been a friend of Gandalf for a long time, and had also no doubt been instructed by Elrond and the Rivendell elves of Gandalf's importance to the effort against Sauron.

Were Gandalf and Boromir not on good terms previously? No real fondness, but they certainly were on the same side. Yet his desire for the Ring made friendship second nature.

Belegorn 08-03-2014 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonraker (Post 693594)
If Aragorn was of the same temperament and mind set as Boromir, he would have pushed for mutiny and the arrest of Gandalf if the latter did not change his mind on taking the Company through Moria. It is the Wolves who really saved the day for Gandalf generally speaking. Thankfully, Aragorn was not so easily corrupted by the Ring, and was much stronger mentally than Bormomir to be able to resist the Ring.

I'm not so sure of that. It seems to me that Boromir had accepted Aragorn as a Captain/leader. In like manner did Aragorn do so with Gandalf. I do not think he would think of going against Gandalf like that. He and Boromir were of the same mind, but remember what Aragorn had said.

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Originally Posted by FotR, bk. 2, ch. 4
You followed my lead almost to disaster in the snow, and have said no word of blame.

To me he was saying, "yea Moria may be dangerous and I have a foreboding of the place, but I myself almost got us all killed anyways so I can't protest too much accept to worry about you Gandalf."

I'm not sure an arrest would be the right word for what they would do had Aragorn decided to punish Gandalf. He obviously had no authority in that land anyway even if Arnor were still at its peak.

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Originally Posted by Appendix A; Eriador, Arnor, and the Heirs of Isildur
At its greatest Arnor included all Eriador, except the regions beyond the Lune, and the lands east of Greyflood and Loudwater, in which lay Rivendell and Hollin.

The Lune was the western borders where the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains and the Elves in Lindon lived. And east of the Loudwater includes a big chunk of land between that river and the mountains which includes Hollin where they were traveling before they went to Moria, and Moria itself. So even High King Aragorn had no real authority in that land. I think they could try to bind him if they so wanted but recall when Gandalf met them in Fangorn.

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Originally Posted by TTT; The White Rider
He lifted up his staff and Gimli's axe leaped from his grasp and fell ringing on the ground. The sword of Aragorn, stiff in his motionless hand, blazed with a sudden fire. Legolas gave a great shout and shot an arrow high into the air; it vanished in a flash of flame.

<...>

Indeed my friends, none of you has any weapon that could hurt me.

I'm not sure that the Ring came into play here, influence-wise on the others from itself that is, in the choice to head to Moria. Gandalf certainly did not want to take the Ring anywhere near Saruman, and Moria he felt would not only mask their goings but perhaps they would run into friendlier folk.

Did the wolves make a vote unnecessary? I think so. I do think that Frodo would probably have taken Gandalf's lead anyways as he said he trusted in Gandalf's judgment. Even Aragorn, though against it, would have gone.

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Originally Posted by FotR; Bk. 2, ch. 4
I will follow your lead now - if this last warning does not move you.


Belegorn 08-03-2014 05:32 PM

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Originally Posted by Moonraker (Post 693597)
Were Gandalf and Boromir not on good terms previously? No real fondness, but they certainly were on the same side. Yet his desire for the Ring made friendship second nature.

I don't recall there being any ill-will between them. I got the impression, at least if I were in the Company's shoes, that Boromir would be one of those guys who said things that could rub you the wrong way but in no way meant to demean one. Boromir was one of most anybody who would look to use the Ring to do good but in the end it would turn to evil. He saw the Ring as a means to help Gondor, a weapon to use against the enemy. I do not think his intentions were bad. Just as it appears was the case with Saruman. Even though he tried to take the Ring by force in the end he was still on the side of the free people. I think it just ate at him that Frodo taking the Ring to Mordor rather than using it to destroy Sauron was like handing him a gift. I could see how he would have misgivings about Frodo taking the Enemy's weapon back to the Enemy to destroy it.

Moonraker 08-06-2014 04:18 PM

Why didn't Gandalf not consider taking the Ring through Mirkwood, and for a time come under the hospitality of the Wood Elves?

Inziladun 08-06-2014 04:49 PM

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Originally Posted by Moonraker (Post 693631)
Why didn't Gandalf not consider taking the Ring through Mirkwood, and for a time come under the hospitality of the Wood Elves?

For one thing, Dol Guldur was a location of Sauron's minions. Not to mention the fact that Thranduil's halls were quite a bit out of the way, and time was rather pressing.

Moonraker 08-06-2014 05:23 PM

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Originally Posted by Inziladun (Post 693632)
For one thing, Dol Guldur was a location of Sauron's minions. Not to mention the fact that Thranduil's halls were quite a bit out of the way, and time was rather pressing.

Legolas never once mentioned going that way, which is a little surprising. He would have known where his kindred were hidden as ambushers in Mirkwood, so they may well have received an escort for much of the journey once they went in. Though the Eye of Sauron may well have been fixed on and near to Dol Guldur.

Belegorn 08-06-2014 05:40 PM

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Originally Posted by Moonraker (Post 693631)
Why didn't Gandalf not consider taking the Ring through Mirkwood, and for a time come under the hospitality of the Wood Elves?

Sauron has a fortress there. Besides, Legolas told the Council that Mirkwood was not safe and he also mentions Dol Guldur.

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Originally Posted by FotR; The Council of Elrond
Dark things that were driven out in the year of the Dragon's fall have returned in greater numbers, and Mirkwood is again an evil place, save where our realm is maintained.

<...>

We failed to recapture Gollum <...> we were drawing nigh to Dol Goldur, and that is still a very evil place; we do not go that way.

It was also said how the men of Dale were also being harassed, "Already war is gathering on his [King Brand's] eastern borders." [FotR, bk. 2, ch. 2] So really that area was not a safe place to bring the Ring. Also the Elves of Thranduil's realms were attacked when the people of Dol Goldur learned of the captivity of Gollum there. On March 15th in Mirkwood several attacks occur.

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Originally Posted by Appendix B: The Thrid Age
Battle under the trees in Mirkwood; Thranduil repels the forces of Dol Guldur. Second assult on Lórien.


Belegorn 08-06-2014 05:48 PM

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Originally Posted by Moonraker (Post 693633)
Legolas never once mentioned going that way, which is a little surprising. He would have known where his kindred were hidden as ambushers in Mirkwood, so they may well have received an escort for much of the journey once they went in. Though the Eye of Sauron may well have been fixed on and near to Dol Guldur.

As Inziladun mentioned Thranduil's realm was far from the direction they would need to be going. It was by the Grey Mountains in the north of Mirkwood. Sauron was looking for Hobbits. I do not think had his scouts seen them in an escort of Elves if that would have been the best thing for the Company.

Faramir Jones 08-07-2014 05:48 AM

No authority
 
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Originally Posted by Moonraker (Post 693559)
The leadership of Gandalf was questioned by the Company when he decided to choose the dark and dangerous path into Moria. At this point, should Aragorn have placed Gandalf under arrest and taken over the leadership of the Company to help protect the Ring?

This question of 'arrest', Moonraker, ignores the nature of the Fellowship of the Ring as a group. From what was clear from Elrond in Rivendell, pointed out by Belegorn, the only person in the group on whom any formal obligation was laid was Frodo. For the others, no such obligation was laid on them in terms of any staying or going. The moral obligations on each was another matter, Gimli pointing out that 'Faithless is he who says farewell when the road darkens'. While Gandalf was accepted as leader, with Aragorn as his lieutenant, who would (and did) take over if anything happened to the former, neither of the two were appointed by Elrond, or elected by the Fellowship themselves.

Such a lack of formality would mean, in my opinion, that if the others of the Fellowship (including Frodo) rejected Gandalf's plan to go to Moria, all that would be needed would be to tell the latter that they didn't agree, and that if he insisted, they would accept Aragorn as the new leader. In this case, 'arrest' would not come into it. As long as Gandalf didn't interfere with the Fellowship, they would leave him alone, letting him decide if he wanted to leave or stay with them.

Moonraker 08-07-2014 11:34 AM

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Originally Posted by Faramir Jones (Post 693638)
This question of 'arrest', Moonraker, ignores the nature of the Fellowship of the Ring as a group. From what was clear from Elrond in Rivendell, pointed out by Belegorn, the only person in the group on whom any formal obligation was laid was Frodo. For the others, no such obligation was laid on them in terms of any staying or going. The moral obligations on each was another matter, Gimli pointing out that 'Faithless is he who says farewell when the road darkens'. While Gandalf was accepted as leader, with Aragorn as his lieutenant, who would (and did) take over if anything happened to the former, neither of the two were appointed by Elrond, or elected by the Fellowship themselves.

Such a lack of formality would mean, in my opinion, that if the others of the Fellowship (including Frodo) rejected Gandalf's plan to go to Moria, all that would be needed would be to tell the latter that they didn't agree, and that if he insisted, they would accept Aragorn as the new leader. In this case, 'arrest' would not come into it. As long as Gandalf didn't interfere with the Fellowship, they would leave him alone, letting him decide if he wanted to leave or stay with them.

After what Boromir did to try and wrestle the Ring off Frodo by force, it is conceivable that any member of the Company who was no longer working in the interest of the quest would be cast aside, and possibly even held captive should the opportunity arise, with the agreement of a suitor, such as in Lorien. Gandalf had many friends in Middle Earth in high places, as did Aragorn. But no so much Boromir, and the evils he committed he later tried to atone for when trying to rescue Merry and Pippin. But by the letter of the law, he should have been arrested further down the line in Rohan if he had survived the orc attack,

Inziladun 08-07-2014 12:10 PM

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Originally Posted by Moonraker (Post 693644)
But by the letter of the law, he should have been arrested further down the line in Rohan if he had survived the orc attack,

You're overlooking the fact that there was no law. In kingdoms such as Gondor and Rohan, laws were in effect to address various circumstances.
All that governed the Fellowship though were individual oaths and loyalties. It was an organization outside any official government (which is probably why it ultimately was successful ;)).

Moonraker 08-07-2014 12:22 PM

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Originally Posted by Inziladun (Post 693645)
You're overlooking the fact that there was no law. In kingdoms such as Gondor and Rohan, laws were in effect to address various circumstances.
All that governed the Fellowship though were individual oaths and loyalties. It was an organization outside any official government (which is probably why it ultimately was successful ;)).

Figure of speech is the name of the game here. I am not saying Middle Earth has lawyers and a robust legal system.

Belegorn 08-07-2014 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonraker (Post 693644)
But no so much Boromir, and the evils he committed he later tried to atone for when trying to rescue Merry and Pippin. But by the letter of the law, he should have been arrested further down the line in Rohan if he had survived the orc attack,

Why would he be arrested in Rohan? He tried to attack Frodo but he never laid a finger on him. Arrest for attempted assault? He is a lord of Gondor, the heir to the Stewardship. The Stewards themselves were more noble than any other kings of men. You've got Gandalf and Boromir positioned for possible arrests, a Maia who was the prime mover of the defense against Sauron and a Lord of Gondor who was huge in the wars in the East. It appears that Boromir was looked kindly upon in Rohan, at least according to the account of Éomer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TTT, Bk. 3, ch. 2
That was a worthy man! All spoke his praise. He came seldom to the Mark, for he was ever in the wars on the East-borders;

As an aside, would you have Isildur arrested as well since he did not destroy the Ring? Have Elrond and Celeborn jail him somewhere?

Moonraker 08-07-2014 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belegorn (Post 693648)
Why would he be arrested in Rohan? He tried to attack Frodo but he never laid a finger on him. Arrest for attempted assault? He is a lord of Gondor, the heir to the Stewardship. The Stewards themselves were more noble than any other kings of men. You've got Gandalf and Boromir positioned for possible arrests, a Maia who was the prime mover of the defense against Sauron and a Lord of Gondor who was huge in the wars in the East. It appears that Boromir was looked kindly upon in Rohan, at least according to the account of Éomer.



As an aside, would you have Isildur arrested as well since he did not destroy the Ring? Have Elrond and Celeborn jail him somewhere?

Gandalf could have been in line for arrest in the event of stirring mutiny and trying to send the Ring into the lion's den through Moria against the will of the Company. But the wolves attacking their camp changed things, and all the company backed down and agreed to enter Moria.

Boromir was another matter, he tried to steal the Ring from Frodo, and theft of this magnitude does carry the penalty of jail in a civilised world.


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