Do you think Tolkien would be insulted by the LOTR movies?
 

Just this morning I asked myself if Tolkien would be insulted by the making of the 3 LOTR movies. Even though they're great (don't get me wrong I LOVE THEM),But maybe that's not the way he imagined his world at all in his mind, and maybe he might feel that they could have ruined his creations by making perminit illusions in the readers mind, than what they could have made up themselves just by reading the books personaly. Sometimes I'm upset with the making of the movies, because Middle earth turned out to be different in many ways than what the movie showed, but yet They explain alot in many ways also- Like I had a very confusing idea of what Lothlorien would look like and I couldn't ever get a clear image of what I wanted it to be, and when I saw the movie, they made it sooo beautiful, that it was better than I could have ever expected. So do you agree or dissagree? Some people do, and many don't so n-e answere wuld work. THANX!<P>*edited for chat-speak subject line<p>[ 12:19 PM January 10, 2004: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]

personally, i hate it when directors turn a good book, ruining the image you had in your mind. on the contrary, I think LOTR the movies are a rare treat. They really didn't screw this one up that much. I think they could've explained it a little bit better but that would take forever. you'd have a 10 hour movie for each one if they didnt leave anything out.

I do not think 'insulted' would be the right word, unless the movies were terrible and extremely unfaithful to the text. He may have had some misgivings, and may not have wished to see the movies himself lest someone else's interpretation of Middle-earth get muddled with his own, but I do not think it is easy to get insulted by hundreds of people devoting years of their lives to create an epic film trilogy in your honor (albeit with a motive of personal gain in their minds as well).<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Just this morning I asked myself if Tolkien would be insulted by the making of the 3 LOTR movies.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It would probably have been much more of an affront to the Professor if they had tried to do it all in <I>one</I> live action <I>Lord of the Rings</I> film.

Also, I'm sure that if Tolkien was alive now he would have had a big say in how the movies were made. It would be quite interesting to see how he would have made them, you know. I wonder how different things would be..<P>Still, I really don't think there's a true answer to your question, Annantar</b>. Who are we to speak for Tolkien?

You could read letter 210 in Letters. Also take a look at letters right before them, the ones addressed to Rayner Unwin. Just tone down the comments in 210, and we'll see what he thinks.

I think I've read somewhere in the Letters where he critisises a movie script, or something. I personally think that he would be pleased that people liked his books enough to make a movie, but a lot of the changes, and even really small things, would make him angry or displeased. Obviously, I don't know him or anything so can't judge his reaction, but from what I've read about him (including the Letters) I think that there would be a lot of stuff he wouldn't like.

Oh I LOVE that letter! it's one of the few things that's made me paralytic with laughter. I personally think he would overall hate the movies and would spend the whole time picking holes in them and getting angry, but I think he would like certain parts that were done very well.

Didn't he sell the rights to Disney?<P>I would think these three films are infinitely better than anything he could of imagined coming from the House of Mouse.<P>H.C.

I don't think he sold them to Disney. In his Letters he expresses contempt for them frequently.

I agree with Lord of Angmar that he would have had misgivings, and he probably would have intensely disliked some of the character changes, particularly those made to Frodo and Faramir. But I like to think that he would have appreciated the visualisation of the films, which I thought really brought the world that he created to life.

I believe Tolkien would possess the intelligence to realize that his creation in book form could not be translated without modification to the big screen. I'd also assume that Tolkien would have the interest in exploring and understanding why certain things work well on the screen, others not, and some only after some massaging. My hunch is that he would be less inclined to condemn than some Tolkien purists, because he would be able to identify with a director struggling to make the pieces fit as a fellow artist, a creator of visions, what have you. He probably would have stuck to his guns in certain circumstances, no doubt, but I think he would be impressed over the number of new people that have embraced Middle Earth and since become fans.

I think that JRRT would probably have liked them, especially the close attention to detail as seen in Minas Tirith, Edoras, Helm's Deep etc., but he most likely would not have liked certain unneccessary plot changes (such as my personal gripe about putting the Smeagol/Gollum transformation in but leaving the Voice of Saruman out). However, I do not think that he would have complained TOO much.<P>BTW what is Letter 210? I don't know what any of JRRT's Letters say, so could you please post it for me?<p>[ 11:05 PM January 09, 2004: Message edited by: Meneltarmacil ]

I think that if Tolkien had been alive the movies would probably have been somewhat different. I don't think he would ever permitted PJ to put in the orc breeding. I still find that part disgusting. I think he would have like most of it though.

I wonder what he would think of the Lord of the Ring Valentine cards I saw at the store tonight? I know what I thought....

I think hear the elvish and the other ME languages being used on screen would have been a delight to him. I also think the Locations would have made him very happy (helms deep, the marshes, the shire, etc). If he was around today seeing how many crappy movies get made The LOTR trilogy would have stood out to him.

Meneltarmacil, Letter 210 is a critique of a storyline for an animated LOTR, here's a quote from it <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>[the writer of the synopsis] has cut out the end of the book, including Saruman's proper death. In that case I can see no good reason for making him die. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hey that reminds me of PJ's ROTK!

I don't think that Tolkien would be <I>insulted</I> by the movies. But I don't think he'd especially like them. It'd be hard for the writer of the books to enjoy a movie made on them, because he obviously had his idea of what the characters & places looked like in his mind, even if he never drew them out (obviously). I don't think he'd be nearly as much against the movies as he would be against all this mass murchandising, though.<p>[ 2:34 PM January 10, 2004: Message edited by: The Only Real Estel ]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It would probably have been much more of an affront to the Professor if they had tried to do it all in one live action Lord of the Rings film.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Or tried to split it into just two films. That was what Miramax wanted to do, I believe...<P>I think Tolkien would have disliked certain of PJ's changes (i.e. Faramir), but overall I think he would have admired the effort that went into it and how well it did turn out, given the time restrictions and whatnot. And, for some reason, l think he really would have liked the score. *shrugs* Don't ask me why...<P>Abedithon le,<P>~*~Aranel~*~

I personally think if tolkien was around to actually see the movie that he would have a very large part in the making. But i also think he would appreciate the movies they are now. Even though they seriously messed up alot of stuff. A.K.A. Faramir, scouring of the shire, When gandalf hit Denethor, and mostly Elves At helms deep!!!! Don't get me wrong I completely love the movies with all of my movie loving skills. But still I would like to have a few words with Peter Jackson.

The ubiquitous head-butting, snow-boarding, dwarf-tossing jokes, "Let's hunt some orc," "Looks like meat's back on the menu, boys," Saruman vs. Gandalf in Staff Wars, other assorted modern references that jerk us out of 3rd Age and into contemporary times, Gimli dribbling ale and belching, Boromir being sensitive/Faramir being hard, scary Gandalf clamping hand on Frodo in Bag End, scary ghouls attacking Frodo in Dead Marshes, producers/writers inserting their own Elvish songs instead of using acknowledged classic text . . . the answer to the question is, Yes, you bet!

I don't really know what he would have thought of the films. But then I don't think that he would have loved them. Because in many ways they are very unlike his writings. I think that he would have most disliked the extended battle scenes, the all around editing of the film, and the general dumbing down of the dialogue.<P>But then I also don't really know if he would have actually taken a part in the adapting of the book to the screen. This was a man who we know did not own a television. What did he think of films? But then he did sell the rights for the book to be made into a film. If he did not want to see a film, he would not have sold them. So I guess that the only thing we can assume is that he would have mixed feelings about the final product.

I think that in addition to what has been mentioned above, he would also be concerned that the ubiquity of the film, and its power as a medium, would mean that its ideas and conceptions will replace his own in people's minds. <BR>So, most people will now think of Theoden as a grumpy, rather difficult old man, not a kindly one; Aragorn as a man initially in fear of his destiny rather than single-mindedly focused on it; Eowyn as a sweet, smiling girl, rather than a stern, cold, screwed-up one; Gimli as a belching Scottish comedian rather than dour and doughty Son of Earth...and so on.

I think that the only thing that he would be disappointed with, is the people that go and watch the movies, and don't read the books. Or the people that only see FOTR & TTT, then read ROTK and pretend that they know everything.

Tolkein was an insanly smart guy. I think he would have understood most of the changes, like for peeps who havn't read the book. However, some things like Faramir and possibly elves at Helm's Deep he wouldn't have agreed with, but insulted? no. As for the Gimli jokes and Gandalf clocking Denethor and the wizard's staff duel, its entertaining. Sheesh. And I believe PJ said something like "Lord of the Rings is and always will be a good book. The movies are my interpretation of the book." or something like that. So I think Tolkein would have been pleased with the movies.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I think that the only thing that he would be disappointed with, is the people that go and watch the movies, and don't read the books.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't think that is quite correct. Actually the films have really increased the interest in the books. Unlike other book-based films, people are going straight from the movie theater to the bookstore and then are purchasing them and then reading them. LOTR is on the bestseller list and it has sold as many copies since FOTR as it did during the entire time before FOTR came out, and the Silmarillion is on there too.<P>Hopefully the renewed interest in his works would be something that Tolkien would be pleased about.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> LOTR is on the bestseller list and it has sold as many copies since FOTR as it did during the entire time before FOTR came out <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Is that really true? If so, that is amazing. I doubt Tolkien could be insulted about that.

And the supposedly unhappy and unimpressed Christopher Tolkien. I wonder how bummed out he is about the stunning book sale revenue?

I like to think that he would have liked them. Cheers for PJ for all of the detail he put into everything. And jeers for not filming the scouring of the shire. I think JRR might have been offended at that part because its a very important part. It represents that even though you wipe out a great evil in the world there is still evil at home. And it was the downfall of a very important character. Thanx for listening to me ramble.<BR> -Cheers!

I'm sure that Tolkien would have been slightly upset initially, but now that book sales are skyrocketing, and anything even remotely Middle-earth-related is being snapped up quickly, I don't think that he would quite mind.

Some more gems from Letter 210:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>A scene of gloom lit by a small red fire, with the Wraiths slowly approaching as darker shadows--until the moment when Frodo puts on the Ring, and the King steps forward revealed--would seem to me far more impressive than yet one more scene of screams and rather meaningless slashings.... (refers to the screenplay's inclusion of <I>Sam</I> stabbing the Witch King in the thigh at Weathertop)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Rivendell was not 'a shimmering forest'. This is an unhappy anticipation of Lorien (which it in no way resembled). It could not be seen from Weathertop: (!) it was 200 miles away and hidden in a ravine. I can see no pictorial or story-making gain in needlessly contracting the geography.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I deeply regret this handling of the 'Treebeard' chapter, whether necessary or not. I have already suspected Z (writer) of not being interested in tree: unfortunate, since the story is so largely concerned with them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Why on earth should Z say that the hobbits 'were munching ridiculously long sandwiches'? Ridiculous indeed. I do not see how any author could be expected to be 'pleased' by such silly alterations. One hobbit was sleeping, the other smoking.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>From these opinions, we can guess that Tolkien would have had a LOT to say about the filming of his masterpiece, and rightly so! I, for one, am glad that the screenplay he is lambasting in this letter never made it to the screen! <P>Cheers!<BR>Lyta<p>[ 12:32 AM January 13, 2004: Message edited by: Lyta_Underhill ]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Why on earth should Z say that the hobbits 'were munching ridiculously long sandwiches'? Ridiculous indeed. I do not see how any author could be expected to be 'pleased' by such silly alterations. One hobbit was sleeping, the other smoking. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I always thought that the above was a pretty bad case of nitpicking. Is the example of hobbits eating long sandwiches any more incongruous than them knowing about tobacco, potatoes (in a myth for ancient England!) and fish & chips?

I think many of you are placing far too much emphasis on the Tolkiens' (JJR and Christopher) lust for gold. <BR>The man who wrote LotR doesn't strike me as the kind of person who would shrug away artistic integrity for the sake of swelling the coffers. <BR>LotR was already a very successful book and had made Tolkien and his heirs a very great deal of money. He wasn't Howard Hughes or Citizen Kane, you know - there's only so much wealth an Oxford don can spend.

I don’t know. Tolkien seemed ambivalent. He certainly said that as far as he was concerned he wanted “Art” or “Money”.<P>Though in my opinion he would have got both from Jackson’s films.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I always thought that the above was a pretty bad case of nitpicking.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I've got to agree with you on that one, <B>Kronos</B>. However, it does illustrate the attitude that Tolkien took towards a screenplay adaptation of his work. I also think that an adaptation done in his own day would have been seen by fewer and appreciated by fewer than the one today, as the book was not as widely read or distributed across such a large swath of the population as it is now. I still think Tolkien would have a lot to say about certain points, such as the space and time contraction, the draining of Frodo's power, the cartoonification of Denethor and simplification of Faramir, Aragorn's reluctance, and the seeming indecisiveness and "hastiness" of the Ents, and much much more! Although I do think he would appreciate the effort and one could only wonder how his hand might have changed some things. <P>Cheers!<BR>Lyta

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>it was 200 miles away and hidden in a ravine. I can see no pictorial or story-making gain in needlessly contracting the geography.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sounds like a complaint about RotK to me .<P>Seriously, guys, I don't think that Tolkien would go for the movies solely because they've sold more of his books, or because lotr is now all over the place. I think he'd be more insulted by the shamless mass merchandising (like I said before) than by the movies themselves. Really, I'm sure J.R.R. would appreciate that they sold more of his books, & maybe he'd like one or two of the merchandising stuff (swords, etc.), but I think selling more copies of his book would not increase his opinion towards the movies. And I still think that he'd not be insulted by them, but that he wouldn't like them.

I agree with the only real Estel. I don't think he would like the movies simply because of the amount of books that were sold.<BR>Besides I read somewhere that he was amused how some people got so obsessed about ME.<BR>Personally I think he would mind the fact that there were longer battle scenes instead of more explanation or more exploration of ME.

I personaly think that Tolkein would be insulted in many ways (not about everything), but the people that made the movies, in my opinion, made it a little harder to love middle earth, and it's characters. Like in the FotR movie, they replaced Glorfindale with Arwen, and Arwen wasn't even really in the book,it MENTIONS her like 3-4 times. Although the movie did make a beautiful love story out of it. <BR> But, When I 1st read the 2 books (fotr & ttt,) I was only 12, and I didn't quite understand what Middle-Earth was. But when I saw the movie, I understood a little more who each character was and the setting and so on...., and then when I got to the RotK, after I saw the 1st 2 movies, I could easliy understand it more. But If I were to have read the books right after I saw the movies I would have been extra confused because of the many mix-ups that they felt necessary to put in there (like the Arwen/Glorfindale mix-up). So I quess that it made the book easier to understand (in very few ways), but not necessarily better. Reading the books right after seeing the movies, would have gave too many surprises.<BR> Long story short, it's a wonderful movie, but would be better if the book didn't excist. But since the book does, the movie gives mixed feeling and understanding of the 3 books.<BR> Thanx, Annantar.

Lord of Angmar:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>He may have had some misgivings, and may not have wished to see the movies himself lest someone else's interpretation of Middle-earth get muddled with his own, but I do not think it is easy to get insulted by hundreds of people devoting years of their lives to create an epic film trilogy in your honor (albeit with a motive of personal gain in their minds as well). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Saucepan Man:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I agree with Lord of Angmar that he would have had misgivings, and he probably would have intensely disliked some of the character changes, particularly those made to Frodo and Faramir. But I like to think that he would have appreciated the visualisation of the films, which I thought really brought the world that he created to life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree. Why on earth would he be insulted? To say someone is insulted means that they feel that they have personally been affronted or done wrong. While Peter Jackson may not have gotten everything the way that Tolkien would have wanted it, I am sure Tolkien would appreciate the effort put into it, if nothing more.<P>~Sparrow<p>[ 5:46 PM January 17, 2004: Message edited by: Sparrow ]

Insulted? No. Perhaps "incensed" would be more like it...
 

Do we have complaints about the dialogue? Then he would have had more.

Most people's complaints have to do with Jackson erring from the Tolkien original text in some manner that[list=a][*]has no discernable technical reason (i.e., appears not to be done for the reason that the author's version would not translate well to a movie medium)[*]appears to be just the scriptwriters' version of how it should have happened[*]purports to increase the drama[/list=a]It would be my judgment that at least Peter Jackson did not have a "complete lack of respect for the original," though of the complaints that I have, most of them fall into one of the above categories.

I think he was primarily driven by a desire to increase the revenue from the book--both for himself and his publisher. At the time (1957-1958), the book was not providing a large income for him. Neither would the movie rights have been sold for very much money.

I could speculate along the economics line that when an author is not well known, not a best seller, and not rich from his books, he would be more eager to get publicity and be a little less inclined to nitpick at such a movie idea and its storyline or script. And I think he VERY seriously took this proposed animated movie apart with criticism.

Suppose, however, that Tolkien were already a best selling author, was sitting rich on a Smaug-like hoard, and had the acclaim and "personal power" that comes from having his work voted best book of the century. (He also would have been one hundred seven years old when Peter Jackson began on his movie!)

In such a case, the movie rights would have been quite valuable. He could much better afford to negotiate his choice between "Art" or "Money." And if he preferred Art (as I am inclined to believe), he could then have been a lot more picky. :smokin:

IF Tolkien were still with us . He would be pleased that as good a job as PJ has done happened. Some directors would have made a total mess of adapting the texts . Jackson has modified it for 1 basic reason , if he'd done a literal 1 to 1 interpretation of the text the movies would have been even longer than they are. And I hope that people who see the movie then read the book. must admit that prior to the movies I had not looked at them. But the movies give a taste of what the texts tell us. And the languages used in the movies a sound for the poetry of the books
:)