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Findegil 06-12-2018 05:13 PM

The Last Alliance
 
This is the first draft of the chapter The Last Alliance in the part The Black Years.

The Basic Text in this chapter is of course from Of the Rings of Power out of the Sil77, nonetheless and I will give source information for each part that is used.

The markings are:
BY-HL-zz for Black Years, Head-Lines, marking all headlines for the chapters in this part.

LA-SL-zz for The Last Alliance, Story-Line, to document all changes that construct the main text.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the text that is mentioned in the source information of each insert.
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason
/example/ = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next.
Quote:

BY-HL-20<editorial addition The Last Alliance
When Sauorn came back to Middel-earth> LA-SL-01<Of the Rings of Power {There} he found that the power of Gil-galad had grown great in the years of his absence, ... and meditated war.
In that time those of the Númenóreans ... and they descended upon Middle-earth like birds of the storm.
Elendil was cast up by the waves in the land of Lindon, ... but the towers of Emyn Beraid still look towards the sea.
Isildur and Anárion were borne away southwards, ... Long before in the days of their power the mariners of Númenor had established a haven and strong places about the mouths of Anduin LA-SL-02<editorial addition named Pelargir >, in despite of Sauron in the Black Land that lay nigh upon the east. In the later days to this haven came only the Faithful of Númenor, and many therefore of the folk of the coastlands in that region were in whole or in part akin to the Elf-friends and the people of Elendil, and they welcomed his sons. LA-SL-03<Cirion and Eorl, Note 39 and The History of Galdriel and Celeborn , Note 16 {The Lord of Dol Amroth had this title. It}To Ernil the title ‘Prince’ was given {to his ancestors }by Elendil, with whom {they}he had kinship. {They were}He was the head of a family of the Faithful who had sailed from Númenor before the Downfall and had settled in the land of Belfalas, between the mouths of Ringló and Gilrain{, with a stronghold upon the high promontory of Dol Amroth (named after the last King of Lórien)}. >The chief city of this southern realm was Osgiliath, ... These were the chief dwellings of the Númenóreans in Gondor, but other works marvellous and strong they built in the land in the days of their power, at the Argonath, and at Aglarond, and at LA-SL-04{Erech}<LotR, Book I, Chapter 11 the Hill of Erech{.
Long had the terror of the Dead lain upon that hill and upon the empty fields about it. For} upon the top stood a black stone, round as a great globe, the height of a man, though its half was buried in the ground. Unearthly it looked, as though it had fallen from the sky, as some believed; but those who remembered still the lore of Westernesse told that it had been brought out of the ruin of Númenor and there set by Isildur at his landing.> LA-SL-05<HoMe 5; The last Debate It was set upto mark the the meeting place of Isildur and Anárion with the last king of the dark men of the Mountains, who swore allegiance to the sons of Elendil, vowing to aid them and their kin for ever, ‘even though Death should take us.’>{; and}And in the circle of Angrenost, which Men called Isengard, they made the Pinnacle of Orthanc of unbreakable stone.
Many treasures and great heirlooms of virtue ... but the Stones were divided.
Three Elendil took, ... and little escaped their vigilance in the days of their might.
It is said that the towers of Emyn Beraid ... but all those that were brought to Middle-earth long ago were lost.

Thus the Exiles of Númenor established their realms in Arnor and in Gondor; ... and the malice of the Eye of Sauron few even of the great among Elves and Men could endure.
Now Sauron prepared war against the Eldar and the Men of Westernesse, ... a great and cruel people that dwelt in the wide lands south of Mordor beyond the mouths of Anduin.
LA-SL-06<HoMe 5; The last Debate Isildur came to the Stone of Erech, when he gathered strength to resist the power of Mordor, and he summoned the Men of the Mountains to come to his aid, and they would not.
{'}Then Isildur said to their king of that day: "Thou shalt be the last. Yet if the West prove mightier than thy black Master, this curse I set on thee and thy folk: to rest never till your oath is fulfilled. For this war shall last down many ages, and you shall be summoned once again ere the end." And they fled before the wrath of Isildur, and did not dare to go forth to war on Sauron's part. And they hid themselves in secret places in the mountains and seldom came forth again, but slowly died and dwindled in the barren hills.> LA-SL-07<HoMe 5; The last Debate But afterwards{, in the days of Gondor's later power, men set a ring-wall about the Stone of Erech, and built beside it on the hilltop a tall dark tower, and there was guarded the seventh Palantir, which now is lost.(27) The tower is ruinous and the ring-wall is broken, and} all about the land {is}was empty, for none {will}would dwell near the Hill of Erech, because it {is}was said that at times the Shadow-men will gather there, thronging about the {ruined wall}stone, and whispering. And though their tongue is now long forgotten, it is said that they {cry}cried "We are come!" and they {wish}wished to fulfill the broken oath and be at rest. But the terror of the Dead {lies}lied on that hill and all the land about.
> When therefore Sauron saw his time ... and Anárion knew that unless help should come his kingdom would not long stand.
Now Elendil and Gil-galad took counsel together, for they perceived that Sauron would grow too strong and would overcome all his enemies one by one, if they did not unite against him. Therefore they made that League which is called the Last Alliance. LA-SL-08<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn At that time also Gil-galad gave{ Vilya, the Blue Ring, to Elrond, and appointed him to be his vice-regent in Eriador; but} the Red Ring{ he kept, until he gave it} to Círdan when he set out from Lindon{ in the days of the Last Alliance}.> LA-SL-09<LotR, Book I, Chapter 11 It is told that Elendil stood {there}upon the Tower of Amon Sûl watching for the coming of Gil-galad out of the West, in the days of the Last Alliance{.}>, and they marched east into Middle-earth gathering a great host of Elves and Men; and they halted for a while at Imladris. LA-SL-10<LotR, Book II, Chapter 2 {I}Elrond was the herald of Gil-galad and marched with his host. > It is said that the host that was there assembled was fairer and more splendid in arms than any that has since been seen in Middle-earth, and none greater has been mustered since the host of the Valar went against Thangorodrim.
From Imladris they crossed the Misty Mountains by many passes and marched down the River Anduin, and LA-SL-11<LotR, Book III, Chapter 4 Sauron {of old }destroyed the gardens>< of the Entwives{ are wasted}: Men call them the Brown Lands now.> {so}So Gil-galad and Elendil came at last upon the host of Sauron on Dagorlad, the Battle Plain, which lies before the gate of the Black Land. All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only. They alone were undivided and followed Gil-galad. Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron. LA-SL-12<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn; Appendix B
Despite the desire of the Silvan Elves to meddle as little as might be in the affairs of the Noldor and Sindar, or of any other peoples, Dwarves, Men, or Orcs, Oropher had the wisdom to foresee that peace would not return unless Sauron was overcome. He therefore assembled a great army of his now numerous people, and joining with the lesser army of Malgalad of Lórien he led the host of the Silvan Elves to battle. The Silvan Elves were hardy and valiant, but ill-equipped with armour or weapons in comparison with the Eldar of the West; also they were independent, and not disposed to place themselves under the supreme command of Gil-galad. Their losses were thus more grievous than they need have been, even in that terrible war. Malgalad and more than half his following perished in the great battle of the Dagorlad, being cut off from the main host and driven into the Dead Marshes. Oropher was slain in the first assault upon Mordor, rushing forward at the head of his most doughty warriors before Gil-galad had given the signal for the advance.>
The host of Gil-galad and Elendil had the victory, for the might of the Elves was still great in those days, and the Númenóreans were strong and tall, and terrible in their wrath. Against Aeglos the spear of Gil-galad none could stand; and the sword of Elendil filled Orcs and Men with fear, for it shone with the light of the sun and of the moon, and it was named Narsil.
Then LA-SL-13<The Disaster of the Gladden Fields, Note 11 Isildur{ had} sent {them}Aratan and Ciryon to man his fortress of Minas Ithil, lest Sauron should escape Gil galad and Elendil and seek to force away through Cirith Dúath (later called Cirith Ungol) and take vengeance on the Dúnedain before he was overcome. >Gil-galad and Elendil passed into Mordor and encompassed the stronghold of Sauron; and they laid siege to it for seven years, and suffered grievous loss by fire and by the darts and bolts of the Enemy, and Sauron sent many sorties against them. There in the valley of Gorgoroth /beside many others /Anárion son of Elendil was slain LA-SL-14<LotR, Appendix A; Note 25(for the helm of Anárion was crushed by the stone-cast from Barad-dûr that slew him)>{, and many others}. But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil LA-SL-15<LotR, Book II, Chapter 2 <on the slopes of Orodruin.>{He}Isildur alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-galad only Círdan stood, and {I}Elrond.><Gil-galad died> by< the heat of Sauron's hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed;>{, and they both were slain}, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years.> LA-SL-16<Of the Rings of Power For Isildur would not surrender {it}the Ruling Ring to Elrond and Círdan who stood by. They counselled him to cast it into the fire of Orodruin nigh at hand, in which it had been forged, so that it should perish, and the power of Sauron be for ever diminished, and he should remain only as a shadow of malice in the wilderness. But Isildur refused this counsel, saying: ‘This I will have as were-gild for my father's death, and my brothers. Was it not I that dealt the Enemy his death-blow?' And the Ring that he held seemed to him exceedingly fair to look on; and he would not suffer it to be destroyed.> LA-SL-17<LotR, Book II, Chapter 2 {' "This I will have as weregild for my father, and my brother," he said; and therefore}Therefore whether {we}Elrond or Círdan would or no, he took it to treasure it.>
Somme comments on my editing:

BY-HL-20: I did not find a good head line of Tolkien for this. I do not like it much to invent one, but I did not see any better choice.

LA-SL-01: We have to add here a kind of indication to what this refers, since the ‘There’ has lost its reference.

LA-SL-02: A lot of text was have added between the last mention of Pelargir, therefore I think we should give the name here again.

LA-SL-03: This seems to be the right place to give the reason for the title ‘Prince’ that the Lords of Dol-Amroth held. And as I understand the Note about Dor-en-Ernil, Ernil was the name of the Lord that received that title.

LA-SL-04: The oath of the later dead men of Dunharrow belongs chronologically here and there seems no better text than that from LotR.

LA-SL-05: I used this older text because it has a bit more details about the oath.

LA-SL-06: The preliminary version of this are either nearly exactly as this as the final or completely different.

LA-SL-07: At least for this info we have a different wording form this older version.

LA-SL-08: We avoided to give this information as outlook to the future when we told the story of Gil-galad receiving the rings, so it has to come in here.

LA-SL-09: I do not gladly take up sentences from LotR, but here I don’t see any better chance.

LA-SL-10: The same is true here. But in this case it might be acceptable since Elrond the narrator is the sole eye witness we have.

LA-SL-11: A Detail found nowhere else again.

LA-SL-12: We do not have many details about the Battle, so think we have to take whatever we can get.

LA-SL-13: I would like to tell this here and not later in retrospect.

LA-SL-14: A note from the Appendix is safer to take: It must have had a source in the internal recording in Middle-earth, so such details must have been told some where.

LA-SL-15: This is a construction from some passages in the retelling of Elrond during the council in Imlardis.

LA-SL-16: I moved this from later in the text, since I think it belongs rather to end of the Second age instead of the beginning of the Third.

LA-SL-17: At the end of the text I had again no choice but to use Elrond’s account. For me this chapter should end here and we should use the text of the following paragraph from Of the Rings of Power and Thrid Age ‘Thus began the Third Age of the World, after the Eldest Days and the Black Years …’ somewhere at the start of the part ‘The fading Years’.

Respectfully
Findegil

ArcusCalion 06-12-2018 08:40 PM

BY-HL-20: What about the name of the HoME book: Sauron Defeated

LA-SL-01: I think we can take the entire opening of the paragraph instead of editing. I know it is a slight repeat of what was said in the last chapter, but there was an interlude between these things, and I think it is preferable to leave things as they are instead of changing the wording for such a little reason.

LA-SL-02: I would say 'at Pelargir' since we have already given this name before.

LA-SL-03: I think that this note actually simply says that they are reffering to the Prince of Dol Amroth when they say 'prince.' The word ernil is a Sindarin word for 'prince.' Therefore, I think the use of it here as a name is far too great a liberty. I also think that we should keep the origin of the name 'Dol Amroth' and I do not think it can be inserted later easily. Without a name, I do not think this note can be re-worked. Therefore I think we should keep it in its original place as a footnote to Cirion and Eorl. It is a minor note and will not be a big deal if it is not kept in the chronological narrative.

LA-SL-04: Agreed

LA-SL-05: Agreed, but I would return to the Of the Rings of Power text with "{and in}In the circle of Angrenost" because it flows better.

LA-SL-05.5: Right after this paragraph, I think we can add in this bit from the Rivers and Beacon Hills of Gondor:
Quote:

LA-SL-05.5 <RBHG The regions of Gondor had a complex history in the remote past, so far as their population was concerned, and the Númenóreans evidently found many layers of mixed peoples, and numerous islands of isolated folk either clinging to old dwellings, or in mountain-refuges from invaders. [Footnote: Though none of the regions of the Two Kingdoms were before (or after {!}) the Númenórean settlements densely populated as we should reckon it.]>
LA-SL-06: Agreed

LA-SL-07: Agreed, but for the last tense change, it should be 'lay' not 'lied.'

LA-SL-08: Agreed

LA-SL-09: I am not sure this addition is justified, since it is such a small detail, and taking from a published text without good reason (like so) seems like it needs a very good reason.

LA-SL-10: Agreed

LA-SL-11: Agreed

LA-SL-12: Agreed, but we agreed to change the name Malgalad to Amdír.

LA-SL-13: I disagree with placing this here. We give this detail in the very next chapter, where the two are introduced as characters, and it fits much more smoothly there. I see no compelling reason to shift it here.

LA-SL-14: Agreed

LA-SL-15: Agreed

LA-SL-16: I think we should end the chapter right where it leaves off before this addition. In my draft for the next chapter, I had this paragraph in the beginning as is, and I see no reason to place this here. The phrase "Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years." is a much more definitive ending to the entirety of the Second Age narrative, and I think it leaves us on a good final note.

LA-SL-17: I do not think that this addition is needed, as it simply restates in slightly different words the meaning of the previous sentences. Therefore I do not see a good reason to take this passage from LotR, especially if the entire paragraph is used in its proper place next chapter.

As to the following paragraph, I used it as the opening paragraph for the first chapter of the Fading Years.

Findegil 06-12-2018 11:03 PM

BY-HL-20: 'Sauron Defeated' is a good idea, I didn't thought about that.

LA-SL-01:So you would start with 'Yet there came at length a stay in the onslaugth of Sauron upon the westlands.'? That does not strike me as a good starting sentence. I as well very much dislike to tell in short hand the story just given in full narrative.

LA-SL-02: Agreed.

LA-SL-03: Okay, I was not aware that Ernil is Sindarin for Prince. But I still think we should us the not here. I would edit it thus:
Quote:

... and they welcomed his sons. LA-SL-03<Cirion and Eorl, Note 39 and The History of Galdriel and Celeborn , Note 16 {The Lord of Dol Amroth had this title. It}To a family of the Faithful the title ‘Prince’ was given {to his ancestors }by Elendil, with whom they had kinship. They {were a family of the Faithful who }had sailed from Númenor before the Downfall and had settled in the land of Belfalas, between the mouths of Ringló and Gilrain, with a stronghold upon the high promontory {of}later named Dol Amroth ({named }after the last King of Lórien). >The chief city of this southern realm was Osgiliath, ...
LA-SL-05: Agreed.

LA-SL-05.5: Agreed.

LA-SL-07: Oops. of course you are right.

The Rest later today.

Respectfully
Findegil

ArcusCalion 06-13-2018 12:26 AM

BY-HL-20: Is this agreed then?

LA-SL-01: Like so:
Quote:

LA-SL-01 <ORP The world was broken, and the land was swallowed up, and the seas rose over it, and Sauron himself went down into the abyss. But his spirit arose and fled back on a dark wind to Middle-earth, seeking a home. There he found that the power of Gil-galad had grown great in the years of his absence, ...
LA-SL-03: Very well, this is fine.

gondowe 06-13-2018 11:31 AM

One thing, if I remember well, Cirdan was the owner of Narya from the beginning, despite of the later note, because is published in TToYotTA in the Appendices of TLotR.
Greetings

ArcusCalion 06-13-2018 12:10 PM

Gondowe, the Tale of years of the Third Age says this:
Quote:

Throughout the Third Age the guardianship of the Three Rings was known only to those who possessed them. But at the end it became known that they had been held at first by the three greatest of the Eldar: Gil-galad. Galadriel and Círdan. Gil-galad before he died gave his ring to Elrond; Círdan later surrendered his to Mithrandir.
This note is very unspecific, and makes no mention of the exact order of time in which the rings were distributed. Therefore I think there is no actual contradiction, and instead there is only detail lost due to compression.

gondowe 06-13-2018 12:17 PM

But I think at least CT thought Cirdan had owned it from the beginning , is said by him in some book, possibly UT. Nevertheless it is more factible that one ring-->one elf. And of course this will fix that Mithrandir would come to ME at TA. (Don't know if you reached a conclusion about that matter)
Greetings

ArcusCalion 06-13-2018 12:32 PM

I am confused as to what you are proposing. In all the documents that give details about the transmission of ownership of the rings, two were given to Gil-galad, and he distributed them to Elrond and Cirdan. This is in Of the Rings of Power and The History of Galadriel and Celeborn. The only text that says it was given directly to Cirdan is the VERY brief snippet in the Tale of Years of the Third Age, which is so compressed as to be barely a source of historical movement. I see no argument to give the ring to Cirdan directly, as this would go against all the source texts. As to the time of Gandalf's landing, there is also no debate. All the texts say that Gandalf, Saruman, and Radgast came during the Third Age around the time when the Shadow first came upon Mirkwood. Therefore there is also no reason to change or debate this. I included this event in my drafts for the Third Age, with some slight editing to reflect the new change that the two Blue Wizards came earlier in the Second Age.

gondowe 06-13-2018 01:08 PM

I'm not proposing anything.
I only say that "they had been held at first", was for me meant that Cirdan had Narya from the beginning (given by Gil-galad at the beginning as is stated in CGaC, despite the other note that says he gave him in the Last Alliance) of course it is, I think, a later note, but if the sentence in TLotR was, as I believed it was, would be definitive for have been published by the author.
In my text is said that Celebrimbor gave Vilya and Narya to Gil-galad and Gil-galad gave Narya to Cirdan at the beginning (not in TLast Alliance period).
Greetings

gondowe 06-13-2018 01:34 PM

I have downloaded a UT book (digital) to check, and in the note 11 of THoGaC, CT says:

Earlier in this narrative (p.249) it is said that Gil-galad gave Narya, the Red Ring, to Círdan as soon as he himself received it from Celebrimbor, and this agrees with the statements in Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings and in Of the Rings of Power, that Círdan held it from the beginning. The statement here, at variance with the others, was added in the margin of the text.

I think this is why I thought what I am saying, for the published text.
Greetings

Findegil 06-13-2018 04:21 PM

BY-HL-20: Yes, that is agreed, sorry for not being clear about this at once.

LA-SL-01: Okay, that is a better start. Agreed.

LA-SL-08: Good to have you discussing with us gondowe! I think that you are right. The statement in LotR, Appendix B is not so unspecifc, in my oppinion. Specially if taken together with the first version of Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn it makes the use of the later nearly note impossible. I suggest therefore to change in this chapter to skip L-SL-08 but add the following:
Quote:

LA-SL-15<LotR, Book II, Chapter 2 <on the slopes of Orodruin.>{He}Isildur alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-galad only Círdan stood, and {I}Elrond.><Gil-galad died> by< the heat of Sauron's hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed;>{, and they both were slain}, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. LA-SL-15.5<LotR, Appendix B Gil-galad before he died gave his Ring to Elrond. >But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. ...
And to change in the chapter Of the Rings of Power in this way:
Quote:

... Celebrimbor followed her counsel that the Ring of Air and the Ring of Fire should be sent out of Eregion; and he entrusted them to Gil-galad in Lindon. RP-SL-09b{ (It is said here that at this time} Gil galad gave Narya, the Red Ring, to Círdan Lord of the Havens.{, but later in the narrative there is a marginal note that he kept it himself until he set out for the War of the Last Alliance.)} RP-SL-10 <LotR, Appendix A III It was believed by the Dwarves of Durin's Folk ...
...
...
...
RP-SL-22<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn At this time the first RP-SL-23<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, note 10 White >Council was held, RP-SL-24{10} and it was there determined that an Elvish stronghold in the east of Eriador should be maintained at Imladris rather than in Eregion. At that time also Gil-galad RP-SL-24.5{gave Vilya, the Blue Ring, to Elrond, and }appointed {him}Elrond to be his vice-regent in Eriador. RP-SL-25b{; but the Red Ring he kept, until he gave it to Círdan when he set out from Lindon in the days of the Last Alliance.11} For many years the Westlands had peace, ...
If the remark in Appendix B is not taken as a cleary ststement that Gil-galad held Vilya until his death, but rather is read as 'at some unspecific time before his death', than we can leave LA-SL-08 as it was and leave out RP-SL-24.5 and LA-SL-15.5.

LA-SL-09: I can understand your concerns and I am not adamant on this addition. If you really think it superficial we can let it out.

LA-SL-12: Oops, Malgalad to Amdír was a late change from ‘private Draft’ to ‘Draft’ in the earlier chapters and I missed to make it through out.

LA-SL-13: The description of the War is already week. I think that this recapture of Minas Ithil is an essential part of the War strategy of the West. But you might of course be right that we will miss this passage dearly in the next chapter. I suppose we leave this point undecided until we have the full picture in both chapters and then chose were to use this passage.

LA-SL-16: It is always a bit difficult to place a chapter break when working only on one side of it. So I for the moment agree to place this in the next chapter. If when discussing this I feel that it would better be move we can easily re-open this point.

LA-SL-17: Yes, when used in the next chapter this sentence is superficial. I used it because I was unwilling to state that Isildur moved to Minas Anor next, which is what followed in The Rings of Power.

Respectfully
Findegil

ArcusCalion 06-13-2018 09:03 PM

LA-SL-08: I think the second option is best. Personally I think 'before he died' is not specific, and so we should simply leave the text as it is, and not include RP-SL-24.5 and LA-SL-15.5.

LA-SL-09: I think it is safer to leave it out.

LA-SL-13/16/17: This is fair. We can re-open discussion on these points later if you find the next chapter inadequate.

I think with that we have reached the end of the first round of edits on the entirety of the Second Age material! That's incredible, especially considering the unfinished and uncertain state of most of the Second Age events, and I think we have made an incredible narrative out of some very difficult source material! I'll try to prep the first Fading Years chapter for tomorrow.

gondowe 06-14-2018 10:07 AM

In principle, that's fine. But I would like to think on how the Rings were "hold".
I mean.
It is assumed that when Sauron made the One Ring the Elves took Theirs from their hands to hide them but not hold them (on their fingers).
Then it always seemed strange to me that Gil-galad would take Vilya in the war against Sauron since HE had the One in his hand. Unless Gil-galad took IT as Frodo did with a chain.
So, "before he died" should be taken into account "just before" or in a previous time?
What is your opinion? How could it be handled?
I personally maintained that Gil-galad gave Vilya to Elrond when he says in GaC, for consistency. But it's something that always gnawed at me.

Greetings

Findegil 06-14-2018 11:49 AM

Who received the Ring when? I think we must split the discussion a bit:

LA-SL-08 or RP-SL-09b and RP-SL-25b: I think, it can not be denied, that LotR, Appendix B states that Círdan held Narya while Gil-gald held Vilya. Thus Gil-galad gave Narya to Círdan when he received the Rings from Celebrimbor. That means the removal of LA-SL-08 and the change to RP-SL-09b and RP-SL-25b is necessary.

RP-SL-24.5 & LA-SL-15.5: The choice we have is only between:
A) Gil-gald giving Vilya to Elrond during the first White Council (RP-SL-24.5 and LA-SL-15.5 not used) or
B) right before his death (RP-SL-24.5 and LA-SL-15.5 used)

From the textual situation I lean rather to B). But from logical point of view thinks look different:
- Of course keeping a Ring of Power even without using it has some influence on the potential of the Keeper (enhancement in ‘Valinórean stature’?), e.g. Sam at Cirith Ungol or Frodo dealing with Gollum at the slope of Orodruin. But Gil-galad was as King of the Noldor holding the greatest authority and real might of the candidates Gil-galad, Galadriel, Círdan and Elrond (even if others like Celeborn, Glorfindel, Galdor, Erestor or Gildor where considered, that does not change the picture).
- To give Vilya to Elrond at the moment of his promotion to Vice regent of Eriador and Lord of the independent stronghold of Imlardis fits into the picture. He is younger than many of the others and as an Half-elf might have been considered wielding less authority over his subjects. Thus from Gil-galads point of view and enhancement of Elrond makes more sense than on of himself. Or any one else.
- Anyhow from the perspective of Gil-galad the Rings were unusable (only the potential not the real ‘might’ is changed).
- Because of the lure to use them they were a burden.
- If Gil-galad kept Vilya two Rings would have been bestowed within the same Elvish realm (Lindon), which might be considered as risky.
- Going into the mortal combat with Sauron and holding Vilya would have been foolish. The luring would have helped Sauron in the contest as long as he wielded the One and if Sauron would have gained Vilya during the contest that would have been even worth for the other combatants than the death of Gil-galad alone, because Sauron could use the Ring and would gain what so ever advantage the Ring could offer.

I don’t see the text of LotR, Appendix B if read specific giving us the freeness to stat that Gil-galad gave Vilya to Elrond before the combat. That is taking too much liberty since we have absolutely no evidence of this from JRR Tolkien.

Thus at the long last A) is the logical choice, for me.

Do we agree on this?

Respectfully
Findegil

ArcusCalion 06-14-2018 11:58 AM

I agree to the Cirdan bit. The revisions are good.

Edit: I am sorry, I misread everything in the post haha. Forgive me, it has been a long night.... I also agree with A)

gondowe 06-14-2018 12:38 PM

A) Gil-gald giving Vilya to Elrond during the first White Council
B) right before his death

As I said before I think that TLOTR must be taken as "law".
In this case "before he died", what does it mean or can it mean?
Giving the ring to Elrond at the time of the White Council IS before he died, though a long time, it is true.

On the other hand what I wanted to say is that when Celebrimbror felt that Sauron had put the One Ring, in turn he removed the one that at that moment would take, because he would know that "one ring to rule them all".
And for that reason the decision to hide them not wearing them (while Sauron was wearing the One Ring).

However powerful Gil-galad might be, wearing Vilya could mean that Sauron could dominate him and therefore defeat him.

Possibly, as speculation, for this reason is the marginal note of Tolkien, I do not know.

Therefore for consistency I have to choose and in fact I always chose A), although as I said before is perhaps one of those passages, let's say, impossible to do entirely coherent without showing them a bit "forced".

Greetings

Or maybe leave the marginal note, instead of for Cirdan, for Elrond, that is, gave Vilya to Elrond before leaving for the war in the Time of the Last Alliance. Of course, leaving it safely in Imladris, would it be possible?

ArcusCalion 06-14-2018 12:41 PM

Yes that is very true Gondowe. I misread Fin's post (apologies all) and so I find that I agree with you both. It seems we are all in agreement.


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