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ArcusCalion 12-04-2017 09:26 PM

The Lhammas -- Can we include it?
I have begun creating a draft version for the Lhammas text, and I have run into a multitude of issues.

1) In Quendi and the Eldar, Óssanwë Kenta, and other places there are several references to the fact that they are merely a summary of Pengolodh's writings in the Lhammas. However, the Lhammas as written does not contain anything remotely like these writings, with their notes on mind-communication, Valarin, and the tongues of Men and Nandor and Sindar.

2) The work relies very heavily on the idea of the Valian Year. Because we have decided to keep this ambiguous and unresolved, we cannot include these sections. However, it seems to me that there is no way to remove them or keep them ambiguous. We must therefore either resolve the debate, or come up with an unforeseen solution.

3) The canon is severely outdated. The concept of the Sindar had not yet emerged, and the entire Sindarin language is not in existence. Especially after Quendi and the Eldar, with the various relations between Sindarin and Quenya and the multitudinous dialects and historical variations alluded to, to edit these into the Lhammas text seems nigh impossible without immense creative liberty. The only document I can find to help is a section of Words, Phrases, and Passages, but I am unsure how thorough this will be.

These three difficulties present to me a very difficult document to revise. However, there can be no doubt that the idea represented is extremely important to Tolkien and was indeed the root of the entire legendarium: the Elvish tongues and how they changed and related over time. I think we need to try our hardest to include it.

That all being said, if anyone has ideas on how to resolve the points raised, I would very much appreciate it.

gondowe 12-05-2017 11:05 AM

If you watch the structure of the Appendix C of my version. You can see my proposal. In this case I didn't take anything from that Lammas of The Lost Road, but with the Lambion Ontale (edited) from PE18, the texts of Q&E, The names of the descendants of Finwë, Dangweth pengolodh, and Ósanwe- centa from VT39, I composed a text very say "Lammasic".

Appendix C
Of Tongues.
Herein are several extracts and comments mostly from The Lammas or Account of Tongues
-Lambion Ontale. The Descent of Tongues
-The division of Tongues
-Of the speech of Dwarves
-Of the Atani and their tongues
-Essecenta Eldarinwa. Enquiry into the origins of Elvish names. (extracts)
-Meanings and use of the various terms applied to the Elves.
-The Clan-names
-The names of the descendants of Finwë
-Elvish names for Men
-Elvish names for the Dwarves
-Elvish names for the Orcs
-Kwen, Quenya and the Elvish(specially Noldorin) words for "Language"
-Note on the "Language of the Valar"
-Dangweth pengolodh
-Ósanwe-centa. Enquiry into the Communication of Thought. (résumé of Pengolodh's discussion)


ArcusCalion 12-05-2017 11:25 AM

Gondowe I think this might be the way to go. I might also include the discussions about the relation between Quenya and Sindarin in Words, Phrases, and Passages as well as the Excursus on Languages from the Grey Annals.

gondowe 12-05-2017 12:01 PM

Yes, it could be.
But in my opinion the Excursus on Languages from the Grey Annals can be well placed into the narrative because is short and very readable.
As for the relation Q-S in WPaP, it will need, I think, a huge composition (I don't think the continuous philological and phonological explanations can be added to a text like Q&E with much of that, even not including the extract from Appendix D of Q&E, published also in VT39) and in the same texts of the Excursus and Essecenta can be read relations between all Eldarin tongues.


ArcusCalion 12-05-2017 12:47 PM

Oh that makes it easier then! Are you satisfied with your version? If so then I think I am inclined to follow this same structure, with the overall heading of The Lhammas and the subheading from the HoME V. document, and then a short explanation that the original Lhammas is lost, but various excerpts and summaries have been preserved by Númenórean scholars.

gondowe 12-06-2017 02:06 AM

Yes. I am satisfied, but of course it would need a review of many other people for this project. It's satisfying for me but maybe not for others.
In this project, as I said before in other threads, were adopted text structures that I not agreed, but I understand it would be very late to change it, and at last the information is the same but given in different places.

ArcusCalion 12-06-2017 02:24 AM

I have been reading the Tengwesta Quenderinwa and I think that if we are to include the Lambion Ontalë we must also include the following sections, as dense as they are. However, I am not an expert in Elvish philological structure to determine if there are any canon issues with the Elvish word-structure and phonology laid out in the other sections. I suppose they could be excluded, but I feel that would be an artificial gutting of the work. I would appreciate input from Fin and Aiwendil (when he recovers) on this. Assuming we do include it (which is most likely not the case, but I assume it here for thoroughness) here is my sample outline for The Lhammas:



Editor's Note
Dangweth Pengolodh
Tengwesta Quenderinwa
- Lambion Ontalë
- Lámaquenta
- Sundocarmë
- Lámasampanë
- Mestanyatsë
- Minquetyarmë
- The Earliest Changes and Inventions Common to the Eldar
Essecenta Eldarinwa
- The Primary Linguistic Elements
- Meanings and Use of the Various Terms Applied to the Elves, and Their Varieties in Quenya, Telerin, and Sindarin
- The Clan Names, with Notes on Names for Other Divisions of the Eldar
- Elvish Names for Men
- Elvish Names for the Dwarves
- Elvish Names for the Orcs
- *KWEN, Quenya, and the Elvish (Especially Noldorin) Words for ‘Language’
- Note on the ‘Language of the Valar’
Ósanwë Centa
- On √PHAN, Fana, and Related Matters
The Tree of Tongues
The more I have thought about this section, the more I am inclined to move the Clan Names and indeed much of the material used in Of the Coming of the Elves back here to its origin. If we are including the full text later on, why insert fragments earlier? To this same point, I am somewhat inclined to move the Commentary on the Athrabeth to right after the Athrabeth itself, simply for easier reference. However, this is a more moot point. I have moved the On √PHAN, Fana, and Related Matters from the Scholarly Notes and Essays section to here because of its close relation, both in tone and subject.
In addition, I think we may have to use the Excursus from the grey Annals, if only for the simple fact that Thingol outlawed Quenya is nowhere recounted in the Lambion Ontalë. Anyway, here it is. Thoughts?

gondowe 12-06-2017 09:08 AM

As I exposed, I agree with your thougts about the exclusion of mayor linguistics texts of the narrative. But if those texts have sentences with descriptions of things or people I think that could (in fact Idid it) be inserted In to the narrative and remain as appendix. I never thougt those minor repetitions goes bad in the whole work, (the same said about my resume of the Atanatarion tales in the corpus of the QS, because of the different nature of concept), but this is my opinion; I resolve this with editor´s footnotes refering to that appendix or that volume.
In other way of thougts I think it must be analised if Bilbo, as the principal maker of the Red Book really include in his translations all the philological and phonological disertations made by the professor about languages made for own use (the same for works like the comentary on the Athrabeth).
What do you think?

ArcusCalion 12-06-2017 11:45 AM

I think that much of the linguistic work is certainly Bilbo speaking, or at least meant to be AElfwine. Essecenta Eldarinwa is AElfwine's summary of part of the Lhammas of Pengolodh, and the Tengwesta Quenderinwa is AElfwine's translation of Pengolodh's document. As for the Athrabeth commentary, I think that is meant to be the Professor, and he is using it as a meta-analysis of the work.

ArcusCalion 12-06-2017 01:07 PM

Having edited the Lambion Ontale I must say that it was immensely perfect for what we needed. Thank you gondowe! I am not familiar enough with the contents of the PE or VT to know where to look lol

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