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Maybe Turgon did not know his sister all that well, as she had been accustomed to hunting and riding with Feanor's sons while in Valinor. If he had considered this he may have discouraged her from joining them. Even so, its likely someone else would have wanted to leave. That's just life. Quote:
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In regards to Turgon, he could not have held the people against their will unless he had some support from others. He could have spouted off as much as he wanted about maintaining the secrecy of Gondolin, but everyone else could have laughed and walked out of the gate. But this did not happen. Most, and seemingly in this case it's a very high percentage, stayed either for fear of the outside, in respect for the King's wishes/law, or were happy within the walls. Where's Turgon in all of that? Did they all wear chains? I think that we at times point to the leader and blame him/her for all that goes wrong, not seeing that many times the problem lies with all of us in allowing/following/not correcting such a leader. Sometimes the person out in front doesn't step forward, everyone else just stepped back. The other thought sprung fom reading this thread was, at times, my friends and I have played the mental exercise of 'lifeboat.' Not that that's the name, as it could be 'bunker,' 'spacecraft,' etc. The game is that you have too many people and not enough room/supplies. You are given hypothetical people and from that list, you have to choose who stays inside and who goes in the ocean/out the door/out the airlock. The exercise gives you a glimpse into people's decision-making process, and you can get into some fun arguments, but it's just hypothetical. I think that if it came down to it, many people would not be able to make the hard decisions necessary for some to survive, and so as a result, all would die. Luckily, there are those that can make the hard decisions. Our ancestors all were these type of people, and some of the things that they may have done we now may find repugnant, but we're here now because of what they did. Turgon made the hard calls. His heart may have said otherwise, but, as it was a cold but nuclear war with Morgoth, he had to slay Eol. It's easy to say that we'd not have done the same. |
OK, stepping back & trying to see both sides of the argument....
I think we all accept that Turgon was not perfect, & in the end he fell into error. He started out a bit like someone concerned with their health, taking excercise, avoiding smoking, etc, in order to live a longer, healthier life. In the end, though, he seems to have crossed the line & convinced himself that if he took enough precautions he could ensure his survival indefinitely. The fall of Gondolin is fated & at the last Turgon refuses to leave because of pride & love of the place. In the end he 'outlived his usefulness' & proved a hindrance to all concerned. 'Love not too well the works of thy hands' is the theme being played out. The best we can say for Aredhel is that she perhaps suffered from the Elvish flaw of restlessness within Middle-earth. This is something we cannot underestimate. Gondolin maybe reminded her too much of the West, yet it wasn't the West. I don't think there are any real 'monsters' on the Elvish side. Aredhel is no more, or less, 'immature' than many Elves. Incarceration, even in a palace, is still incarceration, & sometimes the line between the escape of the prisoner & the flight of the deserter is very difficult to define. Aredhel was in a sense both an escaping prisoner & a fleeing deserter. Turgon was both her protector & her jailer. And in the end, the fall of Gondolin was inevitable for so many reasons that scapegoating any individual is missing the point. |
Or maybe Aredhel was no nitwit or hero, it was just her fate to leave the city and meet Eol etc.? ;)
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The situation suggests they did. However, I wouldn't think they used it a lot.
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And I just started to ponder, if capital punishment was a heavier or a lighter punishment for elves than for men? |
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There's an exciting read. ;) Paradise, like the rest of the universe, succumbs sooner or later to the Second Law of Thermodynamics. It's like holding your breath; you can give in sooner and breathe normally, or hold it as long as you can, then finally be forced to breathe and so have to suck wind to catch back up. R1 |
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An Icon to set upon high....
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I would further conjecture that this archetype (if you will) was as imperative for the Exiles as the strategic importance was, in the battle against Morgoth. IMO, it was at the very least, as great an influence on the Exile's psyche as it was on Morgoth's sense of doom that was going to recieve as a result from Turgon. This is why I think (at least in my mind) the legacy of Gondolin exceeds the other Noldorian kingdoms of the 1st age. |
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Perhaps... But at least you actually voted for one of the real High Kings, rather than petulantly going on about a non-High King. If your reasons were silly... then, well, this is a silly poll. Oh, and regarding a long-since-made point regarding Maedhros as High King of the Noldor before his abdication in favour of Fingolfin- he wasn't. Or, rather, when he waived his right to throne in favour of Fingolfin, he was saying that he had never been High King, that it should have descended to him next anyway. Otherwise, his abdication would simply have meant the succession of Maglor to the Noldorin High Kingship. But by waiving the claim of the entire Fëanorian House on the pretext that Fingolfin was the Eldest of the Finwëans, he was saying that Fingolfin had been High King from Fëanor's death- thus saying that he had never been High King. Whether or not Maedhros was legalistically RIGHT in that matter is a different question, but the point is that Maedhros himself basically said he was never High King. |
Nothing silly about Thinolomien's reason. Same as mine....
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What I'm getting at is that we all like to weigh up our heroes, but without the people who do foolish or evil things, what heroes would there be? That's why even though I think Gil-Galad was the best King in moral terms, I find Feanor the most exciting; he was the one who added most value to the story for me, because he did the wrong things in spectacular style. |
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More concerning Aredhel
Lalwendë, Kuruharan and anyone else interested in Aredhel, Turgon and the Fall of Gondolin might be interested in Lush's thread Aredhel the bad girl? over in Books. My own opinion on the issue is discussed there at some length, and perhaps it can be revived for fresh controversy.
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Alas, I myself cannot participate in this poll because I don't fully (and some not at all) know these figures. Which brings me to the reason why I posted in the first place-curious, why is this in "Novices and Newcomers"? By sheer definition most won't be familiar with them.
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I think I'll continue disscussion as soon as it moves to Gil-Galad.
________ Rambler classic specifications |
You may consider it moved. I think Lalwende and myself are done.
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Alas for poor Elu Ancalime, but the Downers were apparently not all that divided on the subject of Gil-galad, Last High King of the Noldor...
While I hope any readers brought to this thread via my necroposting enjoy the topic (probably easier if they just ignore the existence of the 19-year-old Formendacil contained herein), I actually resurrected it as much because it brought up a query as because I feel the need to reiterate that Gil-galad is the best High King the Noldor ever had: is there yet any active Downer with the power to create Poll Threads? Not that I have a specific poll thread to pitch, but it occurs to me that this could have its place as a stimulator of conversation here and there and that it is a forum function no longer to be exercised. And on the subject of Gil-galad, I wonder whether those of us who form the pro-Gil-galad voting bloc all agree on his parentage? It seems to me that he might well have suffered in the polls for his indeterminate status. |
Without looking at the thread, I made a vote for Fingolfin. I was debating if I should vote for Feanor or Fingon, and ended up compromising by picking one with both fairness/kindness and spirit/might.
I like Gil-Galad well enough, but I prefer the passions of the First Age. ;) However, I second the question: are there still members with poll thread abilities? |
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