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JenFramp 02-14-2003 01:54 AM

The White Council
I know that Galadriel wished Gandalf should be the head of the Council, and Saruman was envious of thatÖ but Gandalf refused the office..for reason I canít remember exactly..but what do you think would have happened if Gandalf had been appointed the head of the council in the first place? Do you think Saruman would have still turned to evil? Do you think Gandalf would have? Would it have effected Sauron at all?

hobbitlass 02-14-2003 03:38 AM

Seeing how envious Saruman was, if Gandalf had taken office Saruman would have been even more bitter and still would have fallen, maybe even sooner.
I don't think Gandalf would have become wicked because it was through studying of Sauron and the rings of power that corrupted Saruman, not being head of the White council.
I do think that if Gandalf had taken office, things would have turned out differently. He would have been busy with the position rather than traveling all over Middle-Earth getting to know the land and its people. I'm sure Sauron would have still been defeated but in another way.

Eomer of the Rohirrim 02-14-2003 06:49 AM

For the reasons above, I don't think it would have made a difference at all. Gandalf 'couldn't' lead the Council as it just wouldn't have been right for him.

Inderjit Sanghera 02-14-2003 08:01 AM

Being the head of the council is not like being the head of the goverment. Gandalf would have time to journey around M-E, anyway. I think the head of the Council would just have the final say on what to do. Hence the Council's inactive stance on Sauron, despite Gandalf's urges, because Saruman kept on over-ruling him.

I think Gandalf's humility stopped him from heading the Council, despite Galadriel's and problably Cirdan's desire to see him head.

Legolas 02-14-2003 11:56 PM

The Council did [eventually] take an active stance, because Saruman did not want Galadriel/Elrond to become more suspicious than they already were about his ability to effectively head up such a council. The Necromancer was found to be Sauron and drove out of Mirkwood.

Phrim 02-15-2003 03:48 PM

I agree with hobbitlass, if anything, it would have hastened Saruman's fall into darkness. Clearly Saruman was envious of the respects paid to him by those such as Galadriel and Cirdan, having to fall under his lead of the Council would have only irked him further. Saruman had a low opinion of Gandalf's way of working toward their given task; instead of concentrating directly on studying the Dark Lord and his Ring as Saruman did, Gandalf concerned himself with the peoples of Middle-Earth, even on such unrelated tangents as Hobbit-lore. Saruman, uncorrupted though he may have been early in his "career", simply did not think this was the way to go about things.

If Gandalf had lead of the Council, Saruman would resent and eventually reject that lead, for he could not see the point in Gandalf's unconventional and possibly unproductive approach. I'd say that the conflict between Saruman and Gandalf would have come to a head much earlier.

littlemanpoet 02-15-2003 03:58 PM

The character of Curunir, named also Saruman,
was to mull in his mind on wheels and gears,
and to stay in a stronghold and not stray in wandering.
He thought about things, neglecting his neighbors.
The former are not flaws, but the last is his failure,
It led to the lure of the Ruling Ring,
which he could not conquer, for he loved too little
the folk whose freedom he was supposed to protect.

[ February 15, 2003: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

[ February 17, 2003: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

Inderjit Sanghera 02-16-2003 11:27 AM

lmp-Curunir was Saruman's Valinorean name. Curufin was a son of Feanor, father of Celebrimbor.

littlemanpoet 02-17-2003 08:28 AM

Oop! Thanks, IS.

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