Originally Posted by Inziladun (Post 693606)

The Witch-king was destroyed at the hands of Éowyn, and no mass panic of Sauron's forces ensued. Why should things have been different if Gandalf had done it?

Originally Posted by Moonraker (Post 693605)

In the event that Gandalf the White killed the Witch King at the main gate of Minas Tirith, would this victory have been enough to drive the hosts of Mordor back in fear and disarray, leading to a quick and decisive victory in favour of Gondor? Kill the leader, and the sheep will scatter? Or would another leader step in, such as the remaining 8 Nazgul, or even the Mouth of Sauron?

Originally Posted by Andsigil (Post 693608)

Had Gandalf done that, he would have defied Glorfindel's prophecy that no man could kill the Witch-King. This is something of a moot question, since Tolkien clearly wanted Eowyn as the vehicle for this.

Originally Posted by Andsigil (Post 693608)

Had Gandalf done that, he would have defied Glorfindel's prophecy that no man could kill the Witch-King. This is something of a moot question, since Tolkien clearly wanted Eowyn as the vehicle for this.

Originally Posted by Aiwendil (Post 693610)

That's debatable, since the prophecy, if I recall correctly, said rather than no mortal man would kill the Witch-king. Does an incarnated Istar count as a mortal man? Though Tolkien's solution of having him killed by a mortal woman is, of course, nicer.

Originally Posted by Moonraker (Post 693605)

In the event that Gandalf the White killed the Witch King at the main gate of Minas Tirith, would this victory have been enough to drive the hosts of Mordor back in fear and disarray, leading to a quick and decisive victory in favour of Gondor? Kill the leader, and the sheep will scatter? Or would another leader step in, such as the remaining 8 Nazgul, or even the Mouth of Sauron?

Originally Posted by Moonraker (Post 693607)

The real battle had not started yet when Gandalf confronted the Witch King. Also, the hosts of Mordor would have been mortified with fear and amazement at seeing their so-called invincible leader falling to a superior power before their eyes. It would have mesmerised them. The Witch King was slain in the midst of battle where far fewer soldiers would have seen his fall, and there was no time to pause for reflection.

Originally Posted by Moonraker (Post 693607)

Would anyone else have had the guts to take on Gandalf the White? The Uruk Hai of Isengard fled with terror at his coming. One thing to consider is whether Gandalf would have broken the rules bestowed on the Istari to not reveal their true power against Sauron directly. In slaying the Witch King, he probably would have had to have used is true Maia powers, thus dying himself as a consequence. But that is one possibility, and Gandalf living on to fight another day to continue the battle against Sauron is another.

Originally Posted by Aiwendil (Post 693610)

That's debatable, since the prophecy, if I recall correctly, said rather than no mortal man would kill the Witch-king. Does an incarnated Istar count as a mortal man? Though Tolkien's solution of having him killed by a mortal woman is, of course, nicer.

Originally Posted by Inziladun (Post 693612)

Sauron's forces were not tied to a specific field commander, even one as singular as the Witch-king. It is said more than once in the books that it was Sauron's will that drove his armies forward against all doubt and fear. Even if thousands of them had seen the WK's fall, they would not have abandoned the battle.

Originally Posted by Moonraker (Post 693605)

Or would another leader step in, such as the remaining 8 Nazgul, or even the Mouth of Sauron?

Originally Posted by Zigûr (Post 693614)

Are we talking about at the Pelennor itself? Given that "Gothmog, Lieutenant of Morgul" (whoever that was) stepped in as the commander - albeit seemingly a rather incompetent one whose strategy was mostly just 'throw the reserves in' and still lost - in the course of events as they actually happened, he seems to be the most likely candidate.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The quote from Glorfindel in Appendix A only says "not by the hand of man will he fall".

Originally Posted by Aiwendil (Post 693619)

Yes, I was misremembering the Witch-king's own quote to Eowyn, "No living man may hinder me!'

Originally Posted by Moonraker (Post 693618)

But would anyone within the Mordor ranks seriously be in a position to risk confronting Gandalf the White in full flow at the main gate of Minas Tirith, having seen their great commander slain before them? I can't see it myself, even Gothmog would be at a loss.

Originally Posted by Moonraker (Post 693618)

They may well have needed Sauron to make an appearance to restore belief again.

Originally Posted by Moonraker (Post 693618)

The Mouth of Sauron isn't as powerful as the Witch King, so I am not sure what he would bring to the battle scene other than a token of leadership and urgency to proceedings. Incidenally, what happened to the Mouth of Sauron once the Ring was destroyed?

Originally Posted by Moonraker (Post 693618)

The Mumakil would have been unfazed, however, and would make no bones about attacking the main gate, But the archers of Minas Tirith would have a field day at targeting the eyes of these monsters, ultimately leading to their carcasses blocking the gate.

Originally Posted by Zigûr (Post 693622)

Why is "confronting" Gandalf an issue? Aren't we just talking about who would command the army?


I doubt it. Sauron's armies were led by the will of Sauron himself, by fear of their masters and hatred of their enemies. I don't see the Lord of the Nazgûl's leadership as being one of inspiration without which the hosts of Mordor were in disarrary. See Morgoth's Ring for the following regarding Sauron: "the Orcs of his own trained armies were so completely under his will that they would sacrifice themselves without hesitation at his command. And he proved even more skilful than his Master also in the corruption of Men who were beyond the reach of the Wise, and in reducing them to a vassalage, in which they would march with the Orcs, and vie with them in cruelty and destruction."
So evidently Sauron's armies could very much be led by 'remote control' as it were, and the Easterlings and Haradrim would follow suit.


Well he would in all likelihood have been in Barad-dûr during the Battle of the Pelennor Fields anyway, wouldn't he? So I don't see how him "bringing something" to the battle is even an issue. After the Ring was destroyed one assumes he was killed in the upheavals, but in any event it's a non-issue. He ceased to be important and we never hear about him again.


If you say so, but really your guess is as good as anyone else's unless there is textual evidence to back up these kinds of assertions.

Originally Posted by Moonraker (Post 693684)

Having killed their great commander, and part of Sauron's power, who would then have the confidence to take on Gandalf at the main gate? The orcs would flee before his face just like the Uruk-hai did at Helm's Deep. The will of Sauron was broken at this point.

Originally Posted by Moonraker (Post 693684)

New leadership would have been necessary to re-inforce the will of Sauron, and I could imagine Sauron ordering the Mouth of Sauron into the fray to restore order in the ranks of the legions of Mordor.

Originally Posted by Moonraker (Post 693684)

I believe the soldiers of Rohan did indeed use crossbows to assault the Mumakil, targeting the eyes of these monsters, and this point is stated in the relevant chapter (Battle of the Pelennor Fields). The obvious thing to do from the high walls of Minas Tirith was to use archers to bring the Mumakil down.

Originally Posted by Inziladun (Post 693685)

No. Sauron's command and control over his troops actively engaged in battle wasn't affected by the fall of any particular minion, even one as powerful as the Witch-king. At the Morannon, there is mention of the Power that drove Sauron's armies and "filled them with hate and fury". It was only after Sauron's attention was elsewhere that they feared their enemies.



The Mouth doesn't strike me as a warrior sort. More of a cunning counselor/politician who liked for others to do the dirty work.



There is no mention of the Rohirrim using crossbows. It was the men of the Morthond Vale who shot at the eyes of the mûmakil, and that by "bowmen". I think the walls of the City would have been too high for any targeting of such small areas, and it was said more than once that Gondor and Rohan didn't have a lot of archers anyway.

Originally Posted by Moonraker (Post 693684)

New leadership would have been necessary to re-inforce the will of Sauron, and I could imagine Sauron ordering the Mouth of Sauron into the fray to restore order in the ranks of the legions of Mordor.

Originally Posted by Zigûr (Post 693687)

Except that to the best of our knowledge he was hundreds of miles away (by the main road) in Barad-dûr at the time, so I don't see how he could simply be "sent into the fray."

We also have no knowledge about his skill as a military commander or even as someone to scare the Orcs into submission. He was "more cruel than any Orc," but that's about the extent of it.