Which was the greatest kingdom... Rivendell or Lothlórien?
 

Becuase we've already discussed the greatness of both their lords, Elrond and Galadriel...

And Elrond says, in the FOTR movie, that Sauron's eye is "fixed" on Rivendell...

But it's not Rivendell the realm that menaces Sauron, and it's not Elrond whom Sauron fears and hates the most... its Lothlorien the realm that opposes him, the one that keeps Dol Guldur at bay (and viceversa) and its Lothlorien the realm that Sauron attacks in ROTK, not Rivendell... it's Galadriel the one that spies and knows about Sauron's thoughts... not Elrond... in the TTT movie, its Lothlorien the realm that helps Rohan in its battle against Isengard.

So... what do you think?

I agree with you, Sauron doesn't care as much about Rivendell as he does Lothlorieon. I don't know why he says 'his eye is fixed on Rivendell.'

~Burzdol~

I thought Sauron's eye was "fixed on Rivendell" at that point because that's where the Ring was. With the Nazgul chasing the Ringbearer as far as the ford, I think it's safe to assume that Sauron was pretty sure that the Ring was in Rivendell.

So, following your reasoning, the reason why Sauron's Eye appeared on Galadriel's mirror, when Frodo was looking into it, and the reason Frodo knew that Sauron was looking for him (wihtout wearing the ring) is because Sauron only sensed it?

That would be a good explanation...

I suppose Sauron paid attention to both kingdoms, so it's not a good judge of their greatness. He seemed to have some idea of the location of the ring until the breaking of the Fellowship, after which he wrongly assumed it was in Rohan or Gondor, not realizing the truth until it was too late.

Personally I think Lothlorien was greater, having Galadriel as its leader.

Lothlorien problably had a larger population as well.

Their greatness can be determined simply by multiplying oppostion to Sauron by effective opposers and also factoring in artistic variables and then dividing by years in opposition to Necromancer/Sauron or Angmar.
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Does the difference in respective rings and the age of the bearers factor in at all? And how about geographical location being proportional to threat/response? Does the average age of the commanders and their battle experience count (according to Gandalf, it should; his comment about "such names are worth a thousand swords" or something like that.)

I dunno, lindil, I think we need a spreadsheet to do this.

I think we need way more information that we will never get and a more pointed question to do this [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

or I could put it this way...

the above post was meant in the most jesting of possible terms.

Awww, c'mon. It'd be a great master's thesis... (In WHAT, I dunno.)

Can you imagine having to defend it? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

Hey, how about this: Set up a couple hundred games of Middle-Earth Risk (we oughta get that many volunteers just here on the downs), come up with two bell-shaped curves indicating the strength of each stronghold (Rivendell and Lothlorien), set the games going with the differing strengths, then do a statistical analysis on what initial strength it takes for each country to last to the end of the war. Then all we have to argue is whether that level of strength is possible.

Piece of cake!!!


[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ March 07, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

just to be REALLY picky- neither are kingdoms! whats an area ruled over by a lord called? i cant remember (or i never knew)

i think that probably rivendell has more experienced fighters in it, although you can't tell for sure. then again, lothlorien might have more people (and so, more fighters) although once again, you cant be sure

Middle Earth RISK!?! Count me in!

Lindil, I couldn't resist:

Lessee....

Lorien - Opposition to Sauron - 10 x Effective Opposers (Galadriel, Celeborn) 2 = 20, Factoring In Artistic Variables (100% artistic) = 20, Dividing by Years of Opposition to Necromancer (at least 15,000 for Galadriel) = .0013333; hmmmm.... try it the other way around: 15,000 / 20 = 750; yeah, that seems more <ahem> accurate.

Rivendell - Opposition to Sauron - 8 x Effective Opposers (Elrond, Elrohir and his brother, Arwen) 4 = 32, , Factoring In Artistic Variables (100% artistic) = 32, Dividing by Years of Opposition to Necromancer (Let's say 7,000 for Elrond) = .0045714; other way: 7,000 / 32 = 218.75; yup, more accurate.
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Lorien wins hands down! Um, Helen, any Master's Thesis improvements on this?

(tongue so firmly in cheek it HURRRRRRTS!)

ughhh, that is the last time I will offer a semi-plausible gest [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

but you forgot Glorfindel as an effective opposer for Rivendell [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

But seriously, the utter lack of hard data renders this question [ and so many others like it] unanswerable.

Well lmp, if nothing else I'd say you've come up with an excellent algorithm for determining the number of amies on the board for a good game of LOTR RISK. We could call it LOTR RISK, BD Rules. Hey, I like that!

(rubs palms together)

I'll roll for... Kamchatka-- I mean, The Iron Hills...

Meanwhile, if we get a big enough tournament going, then we should be able to collect plenty of stats, and we can discuss the anaysis algorithms over the game. It'll look GREAT with the bar charts and pie diagrams labeled with Tengwar and Angerthas fonts. We can throw in plenty of references to The Letters and if we need to we can do some preliminary, "presearch" work using a map of Beleriand. "Silmarisk"!

Silmarisk ! LOL

Actually that would be sort of fun, as long as no one took the 'value/inherent strength' as canon [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] .

OF course Morgoth is going to win [ in the first age everytime!] and imagine how complex the rules will have to be.

You can not have sons of Feanor and Turgon or Orodreth's armies fighting together after the Niraneth, and ...

I agree. As for the greatness part, I think that that is like comparing cats and dogs, or burning hot and freezing cold weather, or skiing and sunbathing. It just matters what you prefer, or in this case, what your definition of "greatness" is. However, I wouldn't say that the eye wasn't usually "fixed" on Rivendell. Elrond didn't say "the eye is fixed on Rivendell, more so than on Lothlorien", did he? He wasn't comparing the two, just stating a fact. Sauron probably did want to conquer Rivendell, or at least get the Elves to leave or something, even if he would probably consider it to be a greater victory if he won over Lorien. Did Tolkien actually compare the two in any of his writings? If so, and one of you knows where, could you please quote it? If not, this could continue to be an interesting debate topic. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

The reason that Sauron attacked Lothlorien but not Rivendell and seemed to pay more attention to Lothlorien was that he didn't have an effective force in the north after Angmar fell. Because Lorien was further south and closer to Mordor, not to mention that it was right next door to his secondary fortress Dol Guldor, it posed more of a risk to him and therfore he watched it closer than Rivendell.
When Elrond said that his eye was fixed on Rivendell it was because the one ring was there not for any other reason. He would've had spys in the north so he would know if Rivendell was preparing an assult on him so he could prepare if necessary, but it was to far from Rivendell to Mordor for it to be a big enough threat for him.

Sauron's eye, no doubt, was fixed on Rivendell because the Nazgul found the ring at Weathertop, and lost it at Bruinen. While the Nazgul realized that the gushing torrent of stamping water-stallions that mangled them must have come from the elves, and Rivendell was supposedly in that vicinity. Lothlorien was a much more powerful place. You asked which kingdom was greater? Easily Lothlorien. For starters, Imladris wasn't even a kingdom, it was the Last Homely House of Elrond Peredhil. It was his home, and a household, while Lothlorien was the golden core to a vast forest. Rivendell was never referred to as the 'Heart of Elvendom'. Aragorn who grew up there, was obviously a good judge as to the power level. Not to mention, Elrond was a Lord, but Celeborn and Galadriel ruled over a people, the Galadhrim, while Rivendell merely acted as home and haven for local western elves. It's pretty clearly stated that Lothlorien is the last great kingdom of the High Elves (of course, with many of their Sindarin and Sylvan brethren). After Lothlorien, I'd say comes the Grey Havens, and then the realm of Thranduil on the level of power. Rivendell had something the elf-realms didn't have though, lots of Noldorin elves. Elrond himself was important, and his children, but the likes of Gildor Inglorien and Glorfindel, and Erestor, are not to be taken lightly compared to a Legolas or a Haldir, who in their own realms were considered quite powerful. I think the realm in Northern Mirkwood had the largest population of elves, but they were an entirely rustic folk. Lothlorien (which had Celeborn, Galadriel, Nenya, and an entire city, not to mention scout flets out as far as the edge of the enormous forest, and more locations) was easily the strongest.

I just noticed that every elven place seems to have its own river. Common sense to build near a river, I guess, but the Bruinen, Forest River, and Celebrant (with Nimrodel) are pretty special.