The Balrog vs The Witch King
These two villains are the main threats to the free & living world after Sauron, although they do not join forces. If the Witch King therefore dared to enter the realm of Moria to gain control of the riches that lay there at Sauron's bidding, & then the Balrog appeared with a sudden burst of flame, who would triumph? Or, rather, would the Witch King acknowledge the Balrog to be superior & neal to this ancient creature?
Note that the Witch King would not at this stage be in his enhanced form, if following with the logic of the book. |
If it's a contest, I would put my money on the Balrog ...being a fallen maia and all...
I can't see the Witch King, pawn of Sauron that he is, acknowledging the Balrog's supremacy though |
Morwen is correct; the WK had basically just Sauron's will and there's no way he'd "convert" (the same as he didn't convert to Saruman - the only possibility would be, if the Balrog possessed the One Ring - or at least we are hinted that in "the Hunt for the Ring", where Saruman says something in that sense to WK - of course, if it's not a hyperbole). But otherwise, I think their battle could - in the best case - appear similar to the battle of Gandalf with the Balrog. I'm not sure how much the "shadow world stuff" will work and how much the Balrog would be able to harm WK, though it's true he's in fact a Maia - but the battle will most likely be a battle of power and sorcery, and if it took place on the Bridge, I'm somehow inclined to think it will end the same as the famous Gandalf vs. Balrog battle.
I am convinced that there was a similar topic already here at the Downs about half a year ago, but I can't seem to be able to find it. |
WK wouldn't even consider a hostile confrontation with Durin's Bane. He's arrogant, but not stupid. If WK appears to be aggressive towards Gandalf, it's most likely because he has no clue who Gandalf really is. The Witch-King was a Man. He was a formidable foe against other Men because of Sauron's backing, but he was on an entirely different (and lower) tier than the embodied Maiar (and even the Eldar). Durin's Bane would have feared him even less than Glorfindel did, who, you'll recall, sent him flying more than once.
By the way, can we please stop taking for granted that Sauron actually transfused some of his Awesome Juice into the Witch-King? It's not a fact, and I feel that the argument for it is pretty tenuous. |
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Are you mocking me? You quote the portion of my post in which I request that we stick to the facts regarding the Witch-King's "enhancement" (that, as far as we know for certain, it was literary rather than literal) and respond by, once again, referring to the event as if it were indisputable.
Besides, you're the one who asked what would happen if they fought. |
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If you're talking about the type of spiritual battle I outline here, then I suppose I understand what you're talking about. But the concept barely applies to any battle involving the Witch-King since he has so little power on the spiritual plane. If the battle was one of wills (spiritual power), as you say, it would unquestionably be no contest at all. Which is why I am sure the Witch-King would have avoided such a confrontation, just as he avoided Glorfindel.
That said, I don't see why the Balrog would be hostile towards the Witch-King, since he would most likely recognize who he represents. |
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He may not have reason to be sympathetic, but that alone does not provide a reason for him to be hostile.
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I have no idea what you're talking about. They could have coexisted indefinitely just as they coexisted up to the Third Age. Are you imagining the Witch-King packing up his stuff in Morgul and moving into an empty room in Moria? In that case, they both could definitely be expected to get on each others' nerves. Durin's Bane had probably grown accustomed to leaving his underwear laying around and the toilet seat up. The latter of which would truly have ruffled feathers, since, as we all know, the Witch-King sits down to pee.
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What's all this about the Witch King getting upgraded? I'm not familiar with this theory.
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Let's not start making boastful claims where we have not done our research yet. Let's not get our feathers ruffled up over such a topic as the Balrog vs. The Witch-King. (Maybe if it was over Balrog wing's that would be a little more understandable :p).
This is a 'what if scenario,' and also a 'someone-or-another vs different someone-or-another'. Which this means no offense, but threads such as this are not ones that too many people are going to take intellectually. To pose a what if, since this is a 'what if'...well what if the Balrog leaves his dirty underwear lying all over the place? :D How is the Wiki going to feel about that? There's nothing to get flustered about. I think the question you've posed is pretty clear and has already been answered. But if it hasn't...Durin's Bane proved to be even a mental strain upon Gandalf. Durin's Bane wasn't just physically strong, but he wore Gandalf out even before their big confrontation at the bridge. So, hands down, whether it's a bout, or some sort of psychological sparring, Durin's Bane would win. The Witch-King's primary weapon is fear (that is a 'psychological weapon'). Why would Durin's Bane have a need to fear the Witch-King? He didn't fear Gandalf? He didn't fear the dwarven kings he slew? If Durin's Bane didn't fear the Wiki, the Wiki was pretty much useless (just as he proved to be useless to the likes of Glorfindel and Gandalf...etc because they did not fear him). |
I dont care which side of the Gandalf v. the Witch King debate you are on. The Balrog would indeed be the more powerful over the Witch King. Remember, even Gandalf fled before the Balrog. And if they were not standing on that dinky bridge called Khazad-Dum, the Balrog would have easily defeated Gandalf the Grey.
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It's possible that Gandalf believed fighting the Balrog with the Fellowship present would be exactly the kind of powerful display prohibited by the rules of the Istari. Surely they would have found a new reverence for him, and reverence was antithetical to the Istari's intended function. Quote:
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Anyway, there's more of that argument over at Gandalf vs. the Witch-King. |
I never interpretted the quote as obloquy has. I always took it at face value that 'added demonic force' mean the Witch-King received a little bit of a power boost. But, now that obloquy has explained it, he's absolutely right the wording is talking about the Witch-King's rise in stature (you could say importance) from The Fellowship of the Ring to The Return of the King.
The quote comes from Letter 210 where Tolkien responds (rather harshly) to Zimmerman's movie script of his books. In this particular instance Tolkien is referring to the scene on Weathertop where Zimmerman created a 'fight' between the Nazgul and Aragorn. Which Tolkien objected to, he said there was no fight on Weathertop and there should not be a fight on Weathertop. Quote:
At Weathertop the Witch-King (being the 'leader of the Nazgul') is in all ways more powerful then them, but he is not at the level of status that he was placed at in Volume III. There, not only is the Witch-King the Lord of the Nazgul, but Sauron places him in command of his entire army. There is a rise in status the Witch-King takes from FOTR to ROTK...it is because of that his importance, his status, is increased. This quote where it supposedly says the Witch-King receives a power boost, is not referring to any 'boost' at all, but saying that the Witch-King's importance, his status, has increased from FOTR to ROTK. |
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It's not that some other captain would have outranked the WK before RotK, it's that the WK's job in LotR, up until RotK, was to stalk the Ringbearer with the other Nazgul. In RotK, he's put in command of an army, which raises his status as the reader (or viewer) perceives it, and this was the whole point of Tolkien's letter. It has nothing to do with a promotion of rank, nor an increase of power. He was always Sauron's prime lieutenant, but on the Pelennor his job is no longer to hunt the Ring, it's to command an army in open war.
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I believe there is "reasonable doubt" about this interpretation. The nazgul are already described to the reader in superlatives, be they regarding power or hierarchy. The witch-king is described in the prologue as a powerful and successful leader of armies, Bombadil refers to that too and Gandalf says that Sauron governed Mordor through the nazgul. Moreover, the very wording of "added demonic power" in the context of simply reader perception concerning his role seems somewhat ... uncalled for. Imposing, majestic, frightening or other adjectives might justify this interpretation, but demonic not, imo.
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There is only one demonic force in Middle Earth, & that is the Balrog of Morgoth. He has no rank Sauron could give him which he could deem as worthy - he answers only to his master (the Lord of the Balrogs), & more importantly his great master, Morgoth.
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Besides, "demonic force" is not here intended as a person, but as a something which the Witch-King acquires more of. The question is whether that something is really something or just a something. |
I take Tolkien's statement that the Witch King received added demonic force to mean an increased demonic force. In other words, the power that was added to was the power which the Witch King made the most frequent and effective use of; that is, the fear and terror that he inspired. That is his primary function, even as the leader of Sauron's armies.
No WAY is the Witch King's scaring-power going to work on a balrog which derived his power directly from Morgoth, the OG himself. |
Why would Tolkien provide this information here, in a borderline hostile letter about Zimmerman's adaptation of his story (with explicit focus on narrative choices--specifically how his differ from Zimmerman's), and not, say, in the appendix to the LotR? In a court of law I would probably be forced to admit "reasonable doubt," but this reading seems incredibly improbable to me.
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Here is an interesting scenario. What if the Balrog did kill the Witch King in Moria? What response would Sauron have to the fall of his great Captain? A showdown between the Balrog & Sauron himself would probably be one of the greatest & most tightly fought encounters ever seen in Middle Earth. The Balrog has no master, & is not specifically in league with Sauron, or why else would it not formally join Sauron in Mordor?
Alternatively Sauron could send a host of Trolls, probably upto a hundred to Moria, to deal with the Balrog. . . |
That sounds like a good topic for another one of your intellectual threads!
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But by the time the Witch King arrives at the Pelennor Field, he is able to break the Gates of the City and to face Gandalf, unless one interprets his departure to check on the horns of the Rohirrim as actually flight from Gandalf, although this does not seem likely given his challenge to Gandalf Quote:
Otherwise, the Witch King's breaking of the Gates of the City might be seen as similar to Gandalf's sundering of the Bridge at Khazad-dûm with his staff. This in fact succeeded in sending the Balrog into the depths (even if it did not kill him), and only by a combination of skill with his whip (and perhaps a bit of luck) was he able to take Gandalf with him. So I'd say the Witch King, at least with his added power, would be quite a match for the Balrog, if it came to that... ' |
Nope.
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I don't think that these arguments:
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Well, take the breaking of the Gates of the City on its own value then, it is an impressive display of force, and as I believe you said, indicates clearly the augmentation of the WK's power.
Otherwise, I agree it is difficult to say how this would play out against a Balrog, since there is ample evidence that the WK was overmatched at various other times, although he seems to have recognized it when this was the case and he withdrew. So it is quite possible he would do the same when faced with a Balrog. The other possibility that I would not completely discount is that the WK on the Pelennor Fields is not completely aware of the power of some of the players on the field at that time. Gandalf is the obvious one--how would he have known that Gandalf had been sent back, although perhaps others will dispute whether his power is really augmented. In the end, of course, the WK is defeated by Merry and Eowyn, certainly something he did not count on. |
Yawn. Done to death.
Now, Arwen vs. Eowyn! In the mud-pit! Clothes-ripping allowed! Now, that I'd pay money to see :p |
Why does the breaking of the Gate prove an increase in the Witch-King's power? The Witch-King was already a sorcerer:
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