"Destroy it.... Isildur!"
 

Question: If Elrond led Isildur to the Cracks of Doom 3000 years ago, why didn't he just force Isildur to toss the Ring into oblivion. It would've been purty darn easy, take out the sword, say "Destroy it!" and if he doesn't cooperate..... well, it would've saved a whole lot of trouble later on...

I've wondered about this a lot - why doesn't Elrond stop him then? That's what i would have done! Well, maybe he just, i don't know, <I>figured</I> that Isuldur (sp?) would throw the ring in and was paralyzed with shock when he refused?

you know I've thought about this, too. I think it must have something to do with him being an elf maybe. Some sort of ideal or even limitations related to killing men, atleast good men. Which Ilsidor was even though he was already falling under its power. Maybe he did'nt just how destructive it would be even for a good man. It was over 3000 years befor Bilbo found it maybe he didn't know all it was capable of yet. Or he had to let man fall to his own destruction even if it meant the fall of ME.<BR>It was 3000 years ago but even then Elrond may have known the fall of the elves power was coming. This may be too bookish instead of movie?

Elrond & Isildur were allies in the war agains Sauron - if Isildur wouldn't give up the ring freely & Elrond had forced it from him, maybe an even greater evil would have come out of it. It was destiny; & Elrond couldn't do anything about THAT...

I KNOW <B>EXACTLY</B> WHAT YOU MEAN! I have thought that myself, and if he wouldn't throw the ring into Mount Doom, I would just throw <I>him</I> into Mount Doom.<BR>

umm... maybe Elrond thought Isildur would throw him into Mount Doom? Elves can die by fire, and Mount Doom would have to be pretty hot, so... He probably also knew that he wouldn't have been able to force Isildur to throw it in. He was too much under it's power, and wouldn't have done it. Who knows?<BR>Arwen

I get the impression that Elrond knew what the Ring was at the time, in both the book and the movie (though rather more in the movie) he seems rather sore and "I told you so" about the whole thing, besides, it's hard to believe that Elrond could delude himself about the power and evil of the thing he was looking at.<P>He probably didn't make Isildur throw it in for two reasons. First of all, Isildur was his friend, his companion, his ally against the dark forces. Remember in FOTR, when Gandalf comments that he could have taken the Ring from Bilbo by force, but in doing so would have broken him? Elrond probably fears that by forcing Isildur to give it up or destroy, he would be breaking Isildur's spirit as well as their friendship and alliance. I don't doubt that Elrond could have done it (or even thrown Isildur himself into the fire); a guy who can conjure up a massive flood on a few minutes' notice could figure out how to get the job done forcibly if he had to. He simply does not want to do it if that's the only way available, the same way Gandalf wants Bilbo to give up the Ring, but not by forcing him. If Elrond had forced Isildur to give it up, he would have been using the tactics and working in the spirit of Sauron, who divided friends and crushed the spirits of his enemies by theft.<P>Secondly, Elrond did not - thankfully for him - know the end of the story. He didn't know that Isildur would be ambushed and the Ring be lost; all he knew was that Isildur had just seen has father murdered and that having seized the Ring was for him the sign of having snatched vengeance and victory out of what had looked to be certain defeat. He was still in the first flush of victory. Elrond may well have had hopes that when Isildur cooled off, so to speak, he might be brought around with good advice and eventually choose to destroy the Ring of his own free will. Of course (what isn't clear in the movie) Isildur kept the Ring for two years before being killed, but for an Elf that's not a lot of time. He probably hoped that he could persuade Isildur eventually, and then - Isildur was gone, and the Ring was gone, and Elrond couldn't do anything about it. Doubtless that made him look back much more bitterly on the opportunity that had been squandered, but he couldn't have known at the time what Isildur's refusal would eventually mean.

I've thought alot about that too and even though Kalimac says pretty much what I've come up with, I also had this little thought:<P>Wasn't Isildur and Elrond related? I could have forgotten or thinking about something else, but Aragorn is Isildurs heir and on those pretty family trees out there you can see that Elronds brother, Elros was the ancestor of the High Kings, right? So, anyway.. I was thinking that Elrond WAS, after all, some kind of uncle to Isildur. If you feel you are closely related to someone, you really don't want to break their spirit and/or kill them. If he had known that the Ring would disappear out of history for 3000 years, he possibly could have made Isildur give up the Ring, but.. well, nobody is perfect. not even an elf.

In the film Elrond says smth. like "I had this one chance to destroy evil forever" and then looks really guilty. But maybe it was kind of like the paradox: "Is the happiness of the world worth the tears of one child?" meaning, that if you hurt a child then the world will be happy (thats kinda obvious, I guesss). This is a little like Elrond's dilemma-if he forces Isildur to throw the ring into the Cracks of Doom, or throws him in with the ring then the world will be safe, but its safety will be because of the death of a man. Also, if he had killed Isildur then Gondor would forever hate the elves, 'cos their ruler was killed and their Monarchy disrupted over a small ring of the evilness of which there was no proof anyway, by the ruler of the Elves,(or one of the rulers of the elves).

Has anyone thought of the idea that this whole scene is just "filmish creativity", something that doesn't some up in the books?<BR>As far as I remember, the Battle of the Last Alliance took place by the banks of the Anduin outside Mordor. Isildur wasn't even near Mount Doom, when he slew the Ring from the Evil One's hand.<BR>Maybe it is just something to the movie more ... well "interesting"? Or am I completely wrong?

Tannah,<P>Actually the last battle did take place on the slopes of Mount Doom: “I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildure cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father’s sword, and took it for his own.” --Elrond (II, 2, The Council of Elrond).<P>It is also clear two paragraphs later that Elrond and Cirdan counseled Isildure to cast the ring into the flames of Orodruin. However, Isildure “would not listen” to their counsels and took the ring to “treasure it.” It never seems to come up in Elrond’s mind at the time to forcefully take the ring. “Wheather we would or no, he took it.” First, this line seems to indicate that Isildure could not be persuaded by argument, as he would not listen to their counsels. Second, it seems to indicate that there was nothing either Elrond or Cirdan could do physically either. There is no reason to believe that Isildure could not whip both of these elves in a fight.<p>[ October 29, 2002: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

Well, then I actually was wrong. Thanks for the lesson.

The Ring has a will of its own and is very powerful. If Elrond had tried to take the ring with the purpose of destroying it I'm sure the Ring would enhance Isildur's strengths to prevent this from happening. Even then Isildur could have just put he ring on and disappeared. It managed to get stuck with Frodo who did want to destroy it but it tried desperately to find someone else it could corrupt easier IE Boromir.

Perhaps Elrond had some foresight and saw that the ring would be used to give the hobbits some power and respect in the world. Perhaps he was too tired to fight Isildur. I personally think that Elrond was friends with Isildur and when he could not persuade him, he could not bring himself to kill him.

Thanks for all your ideas! I had thought about it being only a "filmish creativity" thing, and that's why I posted it here, but I still was curious. Everything you're syaing makes sense, and when Kalimac said:<BR><I>"Secondly, Elrond did not - thankfully for him - know the end of the story. He didn't know that Isildur would be ambushed and the Ring be lost"</I><P>I started to think about it, and it makes more sense now! Thanks!

Heh, okay, i have one more idea!!!! There would be no story if Elrond had made Isuldur (sp?) do that!!!!!!! There you go!!! Hehe, sorry, couldn't resist that...

The Ring came to Isildur. It was HIS responsibility to decide what to do with it - without outside help or force. Like it was said before: it was his destiny.<P> TolkienGurl

I like what you said, Kalimac! I would like to add something else now. Did Elrond know how dangerous the ring would be? Or did he just want Isildur to destroy it because it had belonged to Sauron? Did Elrond really know that the ring was such a danger? If not, that would be a good reason for him not to have forced Isildur.<BR>Arwen

Well, everyone else has said it all, but what the heck, I'll throw in my $2 million worth in. In a contest of wills, Elrond couldn't have done that to Isildor any more than Sam could have to Frodo. <P>But anyhow, it all worked out, right? The King was able to take his place and restore the world of men through the long sequence of events. "And we know that in all things [Eru] works for the good of those who love him and are called acording to his purpose."

Well, I think the number one reason is, as has been said, there would be no "Lord of the Rings" if Elrond had destroyed the Ring then and there. <P>Kalimac, I agree with most of what you said, except for the parallel you drew between Elrond and Isildur and Gandalf and Bilbo. I think it was two different circumstances. Elrond had, as he said, that one chance to destroy evil forever. He was THERE, AT Mount Doom, RIGHT where he could've saved the world from the threat of Sauron. If Gandalf had taken it from Bilbo, he would've had to make the journey all the way from Hobbiton to Mount Doom himself, and would probably have fallen under the power of the Ring in the time it took him.<P>~*~Orual~*~

You all make a lot of sense. I had thought that Elrond could foresee right there and then that the consequences of a fight with Isildur inside Mount Doom would be disastrous, and he didn't want to tangle the already dark situation even further by using force.

I agree with most of the reasons given above as to why Elrond would not desire to use force against Isildur. However, I still think that it is being taken for granted that Elrond actually could use force. There is nothing in the book that indicates Elrond actually had the physical means to take the ring by force. Isildur, after all, comes from a line whose people not only once defeated the Dark Lord, but chained him and threw him into a dungeon.

I agree with Mr. Ferny. Though I have nothing against Elves, they are not as strong and muscular as Men (in general ). Since the Ring was already taking a hold of Isildur, Elrond couldn't have fought with him and took it by force. I mean, come on! It was doing all it could to not be destroyed! <P>BTW, wasn't Elrond just a herald? Why would Isildur, a leader of Men, listen to a herald?

There is one thing about the ring that I haven't noticed anyone saying (maybe I just haven't read the post good enough though). When Frodo, Sam and Gollum is in Ithilien (I think) Frodo says something to Gollum about if he put the ring on, and told Gollum to choke on the fish; he would. Wouldn't also Isildur be able to put the ring on, and command Elrond to do almost anything he wanted?! The hearts of men are easily corrupted, and the ring had already started to turn Isildur evil, and since the ring had a mind of it's own it could have "told" Isildur what to do and he would have listened.<P>Hmm, this is just my theory though!<p>[ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: Laivine ]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> BTW, wasn't Elrond just a herald? Why would Isildur, a leader of Men, listen to a herald? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Even if he was a herald (can't remember that part as well as I should.. I need to re-read LotR), Elrond still was an elf and related to Isildur. Even if Isildur was Leader of Men, Elrond still ought to have some authority. But, in his own mind, Isildur could well have thought that 'he is just a herald' or something like that, but that is no more valid than Gollum's birthdaypresent. Hmm.. Take it or leave it, your choice..

Thanks for the kind words, everyone . This is a nice mind-bending thread (in a good way, of course).<P>Orual, I'm still not totally sure. It's true that Elrond was right there at the mountain, but he was still Isildur's friend and ally. Whether he was one mile or one thousand miles away from the mountain, there's no way he could bring himself to forcibly take the Ring from him, so for all practical purposes it didn't really matter where they were. Just for an example - suppose Bilbo and Gandalf, in whatever unlikely twist of fate, had also ended up on Sauron's doorstep, right outside Mount Doom, and Bilbo had the Ring? Would Gandalf have taken it by force or pitched Bilbo in? I really can't see it happening. Middle-Earth inhabitants just don't seem to be proponents of the "greatest good for the greatest number" doctrine. It's true that Elrond was probably kicking himself afterwards "So close! So close!" But even if he had it to do over again, I just can't picture Elrond throwing Isildur overboard.<P>But I still think he could have used force. Not necessarily with his body, but maybe getting a wind to blow Isildur over the edge of the crack, or something like that. Of course, that would assume that the winds of Mordor would obey him, and they might not be as ready and willing to do so as the river of Rivendell...

But, Gayahithwen, couldn't the Ring have made Isildur think that so he wouldn't destroy it? *shrugs* I guess it doesn't matter, though. If only we could ask Tolkien!

I think Elrond was affraid of the ring because he knew what power it contained. He wanted to make Isildur to toss it into the fire but didn't had the currage to force him because if he did Isildur might have putted on the ring and that wouldn't have been a pretty tought.
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Magic flight launch box

Well, I looked through all the responses just to make sure that what I was gonna say hadn't been said already...and if it has, then sorry!!<BR> But I always figured that had Elrond killed Isildur and taken the ring, then he would already have committed an evil and begun to turn to the "dark side" so to speak. The ring would have known that Elrond had done this and would have tried to turn Elrond's heart even more black and make him keep the ring for himself.<BR> I hope that makes some sense. I don't feel as though I expressed my thoughts properly, so I'm assuming you guys will understnad this! hehehe

He didn't because if he had THERE WOULD BE NO STORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<BR>(it would have been cool to through Isildur into Mt. Doom ring and all... )

Had Elrond tried to force the Ring from Isildur, Isildur would surely have retaliated, perhaps by putting the Ring on, disappearing, and slaying Elrond. If there is one thing we know about the Ring, it is that anyone who has control of it will not part with it without some sort of fight. Also, Elrond probably respected Isildur to much to force him to give up what he had won in a duel with the slayer of his father.<P>In the book, as far as I know, the situation never arises, so this is pure speculation based on a scene in the movie.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> In the book, as far as I know, the situation never arises, so this is pure speculation based on a scene in the movie.<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My thoughts exactly, Lord of Angmar, as I read this thread. As far as I can recall, there is no suggestion in the book that they were actually at Sammath Naur, on the edge of the Crack of Doom, when Elrond and Cirdan counselled Isildur to destroy the Ring. This is how it is portrayed in the film, but the passage in <I>The Counsel of Elrond</I> suggests that the conversation actually took place on the slopes of Orodruin, just after Isildur had cut the Ring from Sauron's hand. <P>Assuming that to be the case, then any suggestion that Elrond might have pushed Isildur over the precipice is out of the question (quite apart from the fact that Elrond would surely never have contemplated doing such a thing). And any attempt by Elrond to seize the Ring by force at that stage, or at any point thereafter, would (as Elrond would have concluded, had it occured to him) have been extremely dangerous for all concerned and unlikely in any event to result in the destruction of the Ring. <P>Even had Elrond suceeded in seizing the Ring from Isildur (which is questionable in itself), it is difficult to see how he would have been able to get it past a load of troops who had just seen him attack their King. And had he worn the Ring to do so, he would surely have been vulnerable to its wiles (particularly as he would have just perpetrated an act of aggression against his friend, ally and (very) distant relation). The Ring itself would have been bent on saving its skin (metal?).<P>And, in any event, I believe that Tolkien said in one of his <I>Letters</I> that no one could voluntarily have destroyed the Ring. So Elrond, once he had it in his possession, wouldn't have been able to do it either.

And let's not forget that Gandalf could not force Bilbo to cast away the Ring, because it would overthrow his mind. Different situation, obviously, but the principle is still there.

There's also another point to this discussion, I think; <I>had</I> Elrond used force to make Isildur give up the ring, it would already have won! One of the main tricks it played was turning friends against each other.<P>As far as I recall, Gandalf also says (in connection with the debate on NOT using force against Bilbo) that not only would it break Bilbo's spirit - it would also lead Gandalf himself onto a very dangerous path - I think the same can be said about the Elrond/Isildur debate.

Well considering this is kind of... how shall well say... something that we will really never no for sure...

Interesting topic! I don't know if this has been touched upon, but Isildur had taken the Ring as weregild for the death of his father at Sauron's hand. I can foresee much trouble coming of an elf attempting to divest him of such a meaningful talisman. It would IMO have turned the remaining Men of Westernesse against the Elves and created even more chaos and evil than simply not destroying the Ring. The Ring was not only powerful in itself, but it meant something very specific to Isildur, a reminder that the foe who took his father's life was defeated. If Elrond had tried to take it by force, aside from the question of whether he would have the physical capability, he would also have to take these other potentialities into account.<P>Cheers,<BR>Lyta (back from a whirlwind vacation and still spinning...)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can foresee much trouble coming of an elf attempting to divest him of such a meaningful talisman.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Excellent point, Lyta. I agree full with your's and Saucepan Man's remarks on the subject, and I think it would be quite illogical for Elrond to take any forceful action either in the scenario posed in the book or the one posed in the movie.

Perhaps Elrond feared that he too might come under the power of the Ring as Gandalf and Galadrial feared and as Sauraman did. Also I do not think it in Elrond's characater to kill a friend and relative, even over such an important thing- thats just not the way of the elves. They are not war-like by nature- the lies of Morgoth brought that about and is carried on through the ages.<p>[ October 22, 2003: Message edited by: Mattius ]

All powers are subdued in Mount Doom...<P>No one would ever be able to cast the ring into the fire in the very core of the Ring's, and Sauron's, power.<P>I dont remember where it was stated, but no one in M.E. could conjure up all the will it was needed to destroy the One Ring when being in Mount Doom...<P>Sauron was not a fool. He might have considered the possibility, but he knew that no living being on M.E. would have the power and will to get rid of such a powerful thing (specially in the core of the Ring's power)...<P>The One Ring was destroyed not because someone had the will to cast it into the fire. But simply and merely by CHANCE (i.e. Eru).<P>So... Even if Elrond had forced Isildur to give him the One Ring, Elrond would have been ensnared too and would not be capable of casting it into the fire...<P>Not even Gandalf, Cirdan, Galadriel... NO ONE would be able to do so... If the ring was so tempting by itself, imagine the great temptation it produced in Mount Doom...<p>[ October 22, 2003: Message edited by: Iarhen ]

Could've pushed the idiot in and been done with the ring