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-   -   The Wolves that attacked the Fellowship (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=5913)

Mithadan 01-10-2001 03:01 PM

The Wolves that attacked the Fellowship
 
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As the Fellowship retreats from Redhorn Pass after the snowstorm, they are assailed by wolves and fight them off. The next morning there are no bodies of the wolves they slew anywhere to be found and Gandalf comments that &quot;These were no ordinary wolves...&quot; What were they if not wolves that the bodies of the slain disappeared by the morning?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Saulotus 01-10-2001 05:57 PM

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Re: The Wolves that attacked the Fellowship

I'll refrain from much commentary here and allow other opinions...

However; an interesting fact to remember is that Sauron was 'Lord of Werewolves'.

'Nuff said.

</p>

Mithadan 01-11-2001 09:46 AM

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Re: The Wolves that attacked the Fellowship

True, he was Lord of the Werewolves, but presumably even werewolves have bodies (I decline to believe that JRRT would require the use of silver or a stake through the heart, if I'm not mixing preternatural creatures, to dispatch a ME werewolf).

I'm thinking, perhaps, that Sauron was also the Necromancer, controlling the spirits of the dead and the like. Spirits, unlike werewolves, would not have bodies.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

mecor 01-11-2001 10:20 AM

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Re: The Wolves that attacked the Fellowship

I agree it is known he is a necromancer and Gandolf hinted at the fact that the wolves were of saurons desine.
althow you remember that Gimly thought that it was the mountian its self that sent the blizard and the wolves suposedly came frome the same place.
just sompthing to think about.

</p>

Mithadan 01-11-2001 11:45 AM

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Re: The Wolves that attacked the Fellowship

Possible. Although Gandalf suggests the snowstorm may have been caused by Sauron (&quot;His arm has grown long&quot;).

Welcome, Mecor, to the Downs.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

The Barrow-Wight 01-11-2001 12:30 PM

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Re: The Wolves that attacked the Fellowship

But what spirits would be harmed by the arrows of Legolas? Or the fire of Gandalf? I think the wolves were definitely physcial beings, though I haven't decided their nature yet. Still thinking.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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mecor 01-11-2001 12:34 PM

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Re: The Wolves that attacked the Fellowship

they were Elvish arows and an Elvish blade would send eavin the 9 back to Mordor.
remember knif in the dark

</p>

The Barrow-Wight 01-11-2001 12:40 PM

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Re: The Wolves that attacked the Fellowship

The arrows of Legolas were not the same as the blades of Gondolin or Westernesse. There was never any indication that they were anything more than normal arrows.

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Mithadan 01-11-2001 04:13 PM

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Re: The Wolves that attacked the Fellowship

Perhaps Sauron could &quot;clothe&quot; a spirit with a physical (more or less) form. When the physical form is slain, the spirit must depart. Maybe this is what a werewolf is in Middle Earth; a spirit clothed as a wolf. Pure speculation of course.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Orald 01-11-2001 04:31 PM

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Re: The Wolves that attacked the Fellowship

That is more or less what I was thinking Mithadan. I see it as fell spirits inhabiting the beast. When they are killed their hroa is reduced to dust and their fea become nothing more than a spirit doomed to wander without a vessel.

</p>

Mithadan 01-11-2001 05:03 PM

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Re: The Wolves that attacked the Fellowship

Congrats on passing 200 posts, BTW.

How do you know about hroar and fear if you haven't read HoME 10? <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Orald 01-11-2001 07:59 PM

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Re: The Wolves that attacked the Fellowship

shhh, don't tell anyone, but I am omnicient. I haven't read it but fea is simple; feanturi, feanor. And I remember MR. Underhill talking about hroar before.

</p>

Oliphaunt 01-11-2001 08:22 PM

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wargs

I always assumed that the wolves that attacked them were Wargs under the dominion of Sauron. You know, the kind at The Battle of Five Armies.

</p>

Mister Underhill 01-11-2001 10:47 PM

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Re: wargs

?!

I was just talking about that noise I make in the bathroom when I first wake up in the morning. *HROAR!*(spit)...

</p>

Orald 01-11-2001 11:29 PM

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Re: wargs

Now it all makes sense, thanks for clearing that one up for me Mr. Underhill. I remember it sounded a little out of context. Underhill, I never really thought about it, but that sounds like a hobbit surname.

</p>

the Lorien wanderer 01-12-2001 03:58 AM

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Re: wargs

Mecor....you're putting us on right? You've read LOTR a million times and it's still 'Gandolf' and 'Gimly'. I'm not bieng disparaging. Just wondering.

Not all those who wander are lost.</p>

mecor 01-12-2001 07:20 AM

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Re: wargs

Gandolf is the way the compony always referd to him eavin thow they knew he was Mithrandir.
I also refer to Aragorn as Srider any time befor the councel of elrond, and Smeagol as Gulm all during the Hobbit and the firs part of the Fellowship of the ring

</p>

mecor 01-12-2001 07:34 AM

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Re: wargs

as for the coment about the arowws i think it is more than likely that they would be Elvish.
For one thing, he has just come frome rivendel what other arrrows would he be given, before that he came frome mirkwood were he would ave also gotten elvish arrows.
Secondly he was an elvish archer what other kind of arrows would he use.
corect me if I am wrong but i dont remember him picking up any arrows of the ground at that point.


</p>

The Barrow-Wight 01-12-2001 07:47 AM

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Re: wargs

Elvish does not equal magical. As is noted in another topic, magic in Middle-Earth is not common and seldom flashy. The swords carried by the Company were ancient swords wound about with spells... created by mastercraftsman over lengthy time. Anduril was reforged over a period of only a months or so, but it was forged on the shards of an already powerful swords. But I don't think that the Elves of Rivendell created an arsenal of magic arrows for Legolas. And I'm sure if they did, Tolkien would have mentioned it. Especially if their supposed magic was indeed the cause of the death of the wolves.

The more I think about it, the more I think the wolves were wolves. And the other wolves took or consumed the bodies of their slain comrades. It is most likely that they were driven by Sauron or by Sauron-sent spirits, perhaps in habiting them or some of them. But they were wolves, nonetheless.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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Mithadan 01-12-2001 09:17 AM

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Re: wargs

Gandalf clearly attached some significance to the disappearance of the Wolves' bodies and expressly stated &quot;These were no ordinary wolves...&quot; Members of the Fellowship must have stood watch that night after the attack and would surely noticed that wolves had returned to feast on the bodies of their comrades. Ever watch a documentary on wolves? They're not exactly quiet when squabbling over food.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

The Barrow-Wight 01-12-2001 09:28 AM

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Re: wargs

They may not have been ordinary... but they were wolves. That's what I am meaning.

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lindil 01-12-2001 09:47 AM

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fear and hroar

I am w/ Mithadan and Durelen on the idea that werewolves were spirits that temporarily [or for a longer term ,by way of Sauron's spells] were housed in the bodies that by design were made to resemble wolves , and when the bodies were killed [just as the Nine at the ford or Sauron at the Downfall or Sauruman at sharkey's end] since they were living up to that point by magic if you will when the vehicle for it was destroyed the spirit fled and , unlike the death of a naturally occuring im/mortal or creature ,the body disappears when the spirit [the primary link or ground in the magic] is gone. sorry for the run on sentence , hope I got my convoluted point across though.

as for the Arrows , I will split the difference. As the elf in lorien [who I have already had to qoute once today] said re: their cloaks and rope [paraphrased] &quot; we put the love of all things we hold dear in all that we make&quot; This is a central component of Elven 'magic' . It proceeds from their being . That is why the food the Hobbits eat in the Woody End tastes better than theirs and why when Elves sing or tell stories , you are transported into the story to a degree , depending on the depth of being and skill of theartist.

So I will assume they were elven arrows from Thranduils realm. Legolas would have the pick of the best as the king's son, and since all elves , I hold ,by threir nature put their being [read magic by some] into all thay did any arrow [or art or craft ] made by an elf would be magical ,to a greater or lesser degree.
I hold in the case of the Mirkwood elves that it was lesser magic compared to Lorien or Rivendell or anything of Noldorin or Eolin or even Dwarven[at the height of their skill] and even possibly Numenorean make , simply becuse they had a lesser lineage and as we see in the hobbit could be rather petty and irresponsible [although I will concede they were the victims of a child's story].

But the depth of magic in the arrows is immaterial, I think anything material could kill the material 'bodies' of the 'wolves' witness Grima's knife, or Eowyn's sword [although if I read it aright it was Merry's Numenorean sword that 'broke the spell that held the undead flesh together' ] finished the job.

a final note [which may be of some interest to Raw], what makes the Elves, Dwarves,Ents and [closer to home] the Dunedain [and much of JRRT's writing] so darn cool is that we see glimpse's of these beings putting their entire being into their art, handicrafts , food, you name it these races prided themselves on Quality [ Pirsig from Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainence should have read tolkien closer]. this should be [and is obviously to most of us] an incredible inspiration to us to emulate them. NOT in learning Golden Dawn style or such 'Magic' but in learning how to put love, care and wisdom into every aspect of our life : food , singing and writing standing and walking .
That is our inheritance from the Valar and Eldar and Dunedain , even though they never existed .


{That is why the Silmarills were so precious to Feanor [although to his credit He accounted his Father above all]
he had created the ultimate work of art on par nearly w/ some of the grand creations of the Valar, he had poured his being into them [ and the Valar had failed to maintain high enough security on their parolee ] so he was enraged. Great art or skills however do not equal great wisdom and mastering yourself is a much igher art than any external skill }.

sorry I got a little carried away there <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

lindil




"What then was this hope , if you know ?" Finrod asked "They say" answered Andreth :" they say that the One will himself enter into Arda , and heal Men and all the Marring from the begining to the end." Lindil is often found on posting on the 'New Revised Standard' Silmarillion at the Barrowdowns discussion board. </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 1/12/01 11:09:55 am

Mister Underhill 01-12-2001 10:00 AM

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Re: wargs

The Silmarillion describes Sauron's 'werewolves' of the Second Age as &quot;fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he had imprisoned in their bodies.&quot; This would seem to suggest that the wolves were indeed some kind of undead creatures whose bodies disintegrated or disappeared after they were &quot;killed&quot;.

As a side note, even supposedly ordinary items of Elvish make always seem to have at least a hint of &quot;enchantment&quot; (for lack of a better word) wound about them. Consider the cloaks given to the company in Lorien, the lembas, and the rope given to Sam, which untied from a tree at a tug and caused Gollum great pain when he was bound with it.

</p>

The Barrow-Wight 01-12-2001 12:17 PM

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Re: wargs

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he had imprisoned in their bodies.&quot; This would seem to suggest that the wolves were indeed some kind of undead creatures whose bodies disintegrated or disappeared after they were &quot;killed&quot;.<hr></blockquote>

In one case, JRRT says they were beasts with spirits in their bodies. And then you say they may be undead creatures. Where did the transformation from possessed beast to disintegrating undead creature occur?

The story says:
.... not ordinary wolves.... attacked... and were 'slain' or driven off by arrows and fire ... the next morning their bodies were gone...

This certainly isn't ordinary but was it supernatural? Why not wolves driven by Sauron's will or spirits to attack and then retreat, taking the evidence with them as they went? Wolves were certainly common in the mountains (at least they had been).



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Mister Underhill 01-12-2001 02:16 PM

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Re: wargs

Oi! Do I detect in the tone of your post a virtual glove being slapped across my face in challenge? Very well.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Where did the transformation from possessed beast to disintegrating undead creature occur?<hr></blockquote>There's no transformation. The dreadful spirit (presumably disembodied at first) imprisoned in the body of a fell beast (now able to act and attack). Lindil gave a good example above -- when the Nazgl Lord is slain by owyn and Merry at Pelennor, his body disappears. Of course I'm only theorizing, but it seems a more likely scenario than yours. The text says, &quot;Their enemies [the wolves] were routed and did not return.&quot; Also I think there's almost indisputable evidence that the bodies disappeared to be inferred from these lines: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> The bow of Legolas was singing...

The last arrow of Legolas kindled in the air as it flew, and plunged burning into the heart of a great wolf-chieftain.

...and the next morning...

No trace of the fight remained but the charred trees and the arrows of Legolas lying on the hill-top. All were undamaged save one of which only the point was left.<hr></blockquote>That one &quot;of which only the point was left&quot; sounds like the same one that plunged burning into the heart of the great wolf-chieftain. Are you suggesting that Legolas missed with all those arrows, or that the wolves that crept back to reclaim the dead bodies (and body parts) of their fallen comrades considerately removed his arrows (and the arrowhead from the heart of the chieftan) and left them behind for Legolas to reuse? There aren't any bodies because the bodies disappeared.

</p>

The Barrow-Wight 01-12-2001 02:55 PM

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Re: wargs

'transformation' was directed at the disjointed change you suggested, not meant as having happened in the story.
Bows are often said to 'sing'. It has no magical connotation.
The wolves did not return... to attack.
I've already suggested the dead may have been consumed... I guess posessed wolves don't eat arrows.
The arrow disentegrated in the flames of Gandalf's heat.

And lastly, if the bodies had disappeared when the spirits left them, it still wouldn't make them anything but disintegrated posessed wolves. The arguments I am hearing seem to make them nothing more than apparitions.


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Mister Underhill 01-12-2001 03:16 PM

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Re: wargs

I did not mean to suggest magical connotations with the word &quot;sing&quot; -- I was only pointing out that Legolas fired many arrows. Aragorn, Boromir, and Gimli all slew wolves in hand-to-hand(paw?) combat. There should have been dead wolves all over the place.

The dead were consumed? Like, bones and all, but the consuming wolves spit out the arrows &quot;unharmed&quot;?

Also, if you check the passage again, you'll see that the wolves fled and the battle ended very close to dawn. It's not like they went to sleep and then in the morning -- whoa, the wolves' bodies had disappeared. When and how did the wolf cleanup crew creep back to erase all signs of their fallen comrades?

They were more than apparitions, apparently. When Legolas shoots the first one, its body thuds to the ground. Boromir hews the head off of another.

Why was only one arrow consumed by the flames of Gandalf's heat? Clearly it's meant to indicate the flaming one that got shot into the wolf-chieftan.

The wolves were routed and fled. There's no logic in suggesting that they would sneak back to gather bodies and body parts.

</p>

The Barrow-Wight 01-12-2001 03:35 PM

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Re: wargs

Eating their dead or carrying the remains away is nutty, but dissolving when dead is not? And be careful, your time-mastering again. <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> Oh, the arrow kindled in the air, not in the wolf. (sounds like M&amp;Ms)

My whole point is that the wolves were actually wolves. That's all. Gandalf never said 'these aren't wolves'. He said 'these were no ordinary wolves hunting for food in the wilderness'.

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Orald 01-12-2001 03:49 PM

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Re: wargs

Perhaps the wolves in this case were not ordinary wolves but not werewolves either. Maybe another choice would be the wargs. The wargs were like the wolves, but larger and more cunning. If this is the case then certainly BW's point holds water. They would have carried off there dead to create unrest and to keep fear in their supposed victims.

But if that isn't the case then it simply has to be werewolves and I must agree with Mithadan and Mr. Underhill.

</p>

Mister Underhill 01-12-2001 04:50 PM

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Re: wargs

&quot;You got a flaming arrow in my wolf!&quot;
&quot;No, you got wolf all over my flaming arrow!&quot;
&quot;Hey, it tastes great!&quot;

What &quot;time-mastering&quot;? I just calls 'em as I sees 'em.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> At the start of the final all out attack by the wolves:

The night was old, and westward the waning moon was setting, gleaming fitfully through the breaking clouds.

...and after the wolves had been driven off:

Slowly the fire died till nothing was left but falling ash and sparks; a bitter smoke curled above the burned tree-stumps, and blew darkly from the hill, as the first light of dawn came dimly in the sky. Their enemies were routed and did not return. &quot;What did I tell you, Mr. Pippin?&quot; said Sam, sheathing his sword.<hr></blockquote>That would be Sam, sheathing his sword afterthe first light of dawn came into the sky.

And what could be more unequivocal than &quot;Their enemies were routed and did not return.&quot;? Is there a HoME version with a deleted phrase: &quot;(except to sneak in and clean up the remnants of the dead).&quot;?

Wolf-creature bodies dissolving is no more outlandish than Nazgl bodies disappearing, (regular) trolls turning to stone in the sunlight, or dragons breathing fire.


</p>

The Barrow-Wight 01-12-2001 05:24 PM

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Re: wargs

You know we won't solve this, Mr. U. But it sure is fun tryin' <img src=biggrin.gif ALT=":D">

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Saulotus 01-12-2001 07:47 PM

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Re: wargs

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> But if that isn't the case then it simply has to be werewolves and I must agree with Mithadan and Mr. Underhill.<hr></blockquote>AHEM! *taps foot* LOL!

</p>

Orald 01-13-2001 01:07 AM

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Re: wargs

I am so sorry to have left you out, from now on even if we don't agree I will make sure to refer to you and your posts, Saul. I am so inconsiderate, I don't no why people even put up with me.

</p>

Saulotus 01-13-2001 08:20 AM

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Re: wargs

That's ok! LOL.
I said I wouldn't reply much to this, so as to allow expression for other opinions.

As a reminder; perhaps another reading of the slaying of Carcharoth should be in order. Seems things disappeared there too...

Although Necromantic Arts, and sunlight (vis a vis Troll affliction?) may more than to do with this 3rd age latent Lupine legacy than TRUE werewolves do.

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mecor 01-15-2001 07:23 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 14
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Re: wargs

I have read this event yet another time and still have many questions. I know that they did not eat or drag of each other. there would have been evidence of this, let us not forget that there was a Ranger in there midst not to mention Legolas and Gandalf I find it unlikely that they would have missed the remains of a wolf meal.
I think that they might have been wraiths of some sort but then the arrows of our Elvish friend Legolas would have han to have been magic in some way unless the mear fact that they were Elvish would have been enough to drive them to Mordor, remember Smegol was hurt by the Elvish rope that sam used to tie him and refused to eat the way bread of the Elves, and it can hardly be sayd that they were magic.
there is also the possibility were indeed werewolves but by every account I have heard they would not die eather. I dont think that they would be sent to Mordor eather.

I think that the idea of them being imbodied spirits is the most likely, and there were eather diven of rather than killed or called back by Sauron.
(just my opinion let me know if i am way off)

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Mithadan 01-15-2001 07:27 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 495
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Re: wargs

Nice post Mecor. You've got it. Its Ron whose wrong. <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">


--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

lindil 01-16-2001 12:16 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 232
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prior post

Ok, I know my prior post got soapboxy , but it still seems [ to my mind] to have covered these points rather well.
????????



lindil

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The Barrow-Wight 01-16-2001 08:51 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1738
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Wolves

Ok! Ok! Now that I've argued my point into a deep hole its time for me to reinvent my opinion.

As strange as it may seem, I have long read the name 'Necromancer' but never associated Sauron with having such powers even though the Nazgul would seem to be pretty obvious evidence of power over death. In recent posts this simple fact has finally sunk in and I now am thinking along the following line which likely echoes what has been said above by others:

The wolves were the reanimated flesh of wolves or Wargs. They were prowling Hollin as part of Sauron's many-pronged plan to sweep the entire region for the ring bearer. He knew the Ring was in Rivendell, and he presumed that eventually it would be taken out of the Elven valley.

Such parties of lifeless creatures would make an excellent seek-and-destroy tool. Fortunately for Frodo and his hobbit friends, the wolves didn't find just hobbits.

They were defeated with a combination of conventional and magical tools.... swords, arrows, axes (both magical and non-magical) and wizard's fire.

The fact that they withdrew and did not return suggests they were not directly controlled, else they could have been thrown at the party again and again. Unless, of course, they were tools only available to the controller at night. And the Company did not allow the wolves another night.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

lindil 01-16-2001 09:14 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 242
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reminds me of a bumper sticker...

This reminds me of a bumper sticker I have seen a couple of times:

'The mind is like a parachute, it functions best when open'

Keep that mind [and spine] loose and flexible!

Lindil is often found on posting on the New Silmarillion Canon Forum at the Barrowdowns discussion board. 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

Mithadan 01-16-2001 09:24 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 499
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Re: Wolves

Naw. They were just wolves. <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

Actually, somewhere in HoME there is a discussion about Morgoth's &quot;counter-summons&quot; to the spirits of the dead (elves and men). It suggests that the counter-summons was actually made by Sauron, who possessed or learned such necromantic skills, confirming that the term &quot;necromancer&quot; was indeed used in the classic sense.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>


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