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-   -   Are orcs immortal?? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=5955)

Eggy 12-08-2003 11:14 AM

Are orcs immortal??
 
I was just thinking since the orcs are a just corrupt form of elves (bad elves) are they immortal??

SharkŻ 12-08-2003 11:36 AM

HerenIstarion analyzes this question, as well as the question of orc origins, in his article in our FAQ. Of course, this is based on the concept that orcs are indeed corrupted Quendi, which is not necessarily the alpha and omega of orcs.

pandora 12-08-2003 12:30 PM

I was wondering exactly this this morning! There are a few hints in the orc conversations that they are immortal. Gorbag and Snagrat talk about the "good old days" as if they were a long time ago and they also seem to remember the "Great Seige" (ie, the Last Alliance) as if they were there.

The most interesting part is that they regard the Nazgul as newcomers! ("They're His favourites nowadays": how long is it since the Nazgul were not Sauron's favourite servants?) That would make them very, very old indeed.

There's also old Grishnahk to consider: the level of trust put in him by Sauron seems extraordinary; more than the Mouth of Sauron or any other mortal. Surely only very long service indeed could bring an orc up to the point where Sauron actually trusted him with the Ring? How long I don't know but given the nature of Sauron and orcs I'd have guessed centuries at least.

Silmiel of Imladris 12-08-2003 04:15 PM

I don't know if the orcs are immortal because of the elves because the blood has probably been so watered down since the first elves were taken. Perhaps Sauron has the power to gift some of his followers with immortality or at least very long life. Like the Black Numenor. (I think.)

Theoric Windcaller 12-08-2003 05:46 PM

I agree with Silmiel. But when the elves were corrupted and the orcs came into being, then I am sure that those orcs were probably naturally immortal, but how long ago do you think that happened?

Like Silmiel said, the bloodline of orcs has been so "watered down" that the immortality of the orcs is gone and the new orcs now have some elven blood in them, but not enough to really affect anything. The only ones who would make an exception were, of course, the orcs who were the first and were still living. LIke Gorbag and Snagrat.

That's all IMO.


8)

The Perky Ent 12-08-2003 06:23 PM

Guessing by the size of Sauron and Saruman's armies, I'd say original orcs from the first age are immortal, but newly born orcs are mortal. I think it's like how Aragorn is a Dunadan he's 87, whereas over humans is Gondor live a normal age.

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar 12-09-2003 08:09 AM

Welss, the orcs bred from Quendi are immortal, but hte orcs bred from men are not. The Uruk-Hai, for example, are not immoortal, because it states that they were bred from orcs and men (somewhere). I would think the orcs that were immortal would stick together, and the same with those that were not. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Ainaserkewen 12-09-2003 03:30 PM

I agree with The Perky Ent on this one. The original orcs might have well been immortal. But immortal or not, how long would any orc live. With all the killing left and right. All the cheiftains of orcs would be long dead and maybe the oldest orcs are just in the shadows because if they became known someone would kill them.

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar 12-09-2003 08:21 PM

What makes you think the orc chiefs would be dead? Since they are probably mostly cowards, they would run away and not die... Actually, I think they are the most likely to survive. And only the orcs bred from humans would not be immortal. Although the orcs were CORRUPTED elves, you have to remember that mortality was originally a GIFT, so corruption could not bestow it. Thus:

Orcs form elves=immortal
ORcs from men=mortal

No way around it. If an orcs ancestors wre immmortal, it is immortal, even if it was not from the first age.

(feel free to argue with me. I want you to)

Mariska Greenleaf 12-10-2003 05:25 AM

Quote:

(feel free to argue with me. I want you to)
Quote:

The Uruk-Hai, for example, are not immoortal, because it states that they were bred from orcs and men
Whether or not orcs, or some kind of orcs, are immortal, Uruk-hai are, as far as I know, not the result of breeding orcs and men.
Perhaps this misunderstanding arose with the making of the movie, in which Saruman is the one to create the Uruk-hai, while in the book Sauron creates them. Saruman did however cross orcs and men, known as Goblin-men. Maybe this lead to some confusion.

Back on topic.
I believe that orcs are immortal. Of course,
almost all of the known individual orcs are slain in battle, or killed in other circumstances. What is kinda remarkable is that Gorbag was slain in 3019 (III), at the age of more then 500 years, which would suggest his immortality. He was an Uruk-hai, so he was a later breed of orc.
And if these were immortal, and assuming that the first orcs are corrupted elves, I do believe that orcs are immortal.

Does anybody know what happened to Shagrat?

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar 12-10-2003 08:00 AM

OK, yes, thank you for correcting my error. However, I stand by my belief that not all orcs are immortal, only some. The goblin-men are obviously not immortal, but other than that, I am not sure any more who is and who isn't.

Shagrat? hm, never actually thought about him...

pandora 12-11-2003 03:20 AM

Quote:

Does anybody know what happened to Shagrat?
I think he has a legal practice somewhere in London.

SharkŻ 12-11-2003 06:02 AM

Just because orcs like Shagrat and Gorbag reminisce 'good old times' doesn't mean they have actually witnessed them. There is nothing that suggest either of those two is particularly old.

Eol Telemnar 12-11-2003 07:34 AM

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/ubb/icons/icon4.gif

Well, I'd say the original orcs are immortal, but not the ones in sauron's and saruman's armies, because it is impossibe to capture way over tens of thousands of elves! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar 12-11-2003 08:12 AM

That is true, but it is possible that there is an elite force of elvish orcs hidden somewhere. I would think that elvish orcs would be of better "quality" than human orcs because they have longer to train.

You forgot one thing- they would not have to capture 10s of thousands of elves- elves DO reproduce. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

pandora 12-11-2003 08:22 AM

Quote:

Just because orcs like Shagrat and Gorbag reminisce 'good old times' doesn't mean they have actually witnessed them.
Read the section in question. Either they saw them or they are Orc Lore Masters who have studied their race's history. Doesn't seem very in-character, does it? Their attitude to the Nazgul as newcomers simply doesn't ring true if they have a life-span akin to Men.

Finwe 12-11-2003 12:11 PM

Tuor, Elves don't reproduce in conditions of war or captivity. In Morgoth's Ring, when Elven marriage customs are being discussed, it is said that Elves do not have children during times of war, unsettlement, captivity, or hardship. They make sure that they only have children in times of peace and prosperity. Unless Sauron came up with a way of forcing Elves to reproduce against their nature, he wouldn't be able to make them reproduce.

SharkŻ 12-11-2003 12:53 PM

Just because Gorbag complains that the NazgŻl are "His favourites nowadays" (LR, IV, x) doesn't mean he considers them as newcomers. What is new is the importance of the NazgŻl to Lugbķrz: before the hunt for the Ring the year before, Sauron could not use them openly, and had to give orcs like Gorbag a bigger rŰle. This makes sense without making unnecessarily far-reaching assumptions.
Nevertheless it is of course well possible that a few certain orcs are of the implied umairain origin, and therefore (infinitely?) longeval. However, even if Shagrat and Gorbag belonged to that category (and it is uncertain whether they do), this does not indicate anything of value for all other orcs.

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar 12-11-2003 09:08 PM

Quote:

Elves don't reproduce in conditions of war or captivity. In Morgoth's Ring, when Elven marriage customs are being discussed, it is said that Elves do not have children during times of war, unsettlement, captivity, or hardship
Yes, that is helpful to know. Unfortunately, I have not read morgoths ring, so I was not aware of this. Even so, i do not find it impossible that morgoth has found a way to force the orcs to reproduce. They are corrupted, so, to me, it does not seem odd that elvish traits, such as those mentioned in the quote, do not appy, for lack of a better term.

Rindoien, elf of Lothlorien 12-12-2003 02:13 AM

Wasn't it said that Uruk-Hai came from the breeding of Orcs and Goblin men? I believe the first orcs were probably immortal due to the Elvish blood in them. Although they were corrupted, you can't really take immortality away from the blood.

Feel free to comment or disagree.

Eol Telemnar 12-12-2003 07:34 PM

(Going back to the original question, for I know that im inturupting a conversation [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ) The original orcs are immortal, but for one, I know that in saruman's army, they did not capture 10,000 elves! As far as I know, It's already difficult enough to capture one elf!

Eol Telemnar 12-12-2003 07:36 PM

I agree with you, Rindoien. You can't take elvish blood away.

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar 12-12-2003 09:47 PM

False, you can take elvish blood away. In all elf-human marriages, the elf becomes mortal. And the children have a choice. I wonder what happens to the children- do they make a choice, or does sauron make the choice for them? [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Eol Telemnar 12-13-2003 10:10 AM

who knows, Tuor! I know I don't!

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar 12-13-2003 10:15 AM

Yes, well, I have started a topic about it, so that this discussion does not go too off topic. If you want to answer me, go to that thread (Man/Orc Reproduction)

EDIT: Never mind, the link works.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 11:16 AM December 13, 2003: Message edited by: Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar ]

Eol Telemnar 12-13-2003 10:15 AM

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar, THis is a little off subject, but i'm only talking to you.

Go to your profile and allow private messages. I've been trying to send private messages to you, and it says your not allowing private messeges, change that
ps. Tuor, try going to my new topic, Castles in Middle Earth, it's in this forum, and I just created it [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

dubleu 12-13-2003 10:23 PM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Elves don't reproduce in conditions of war or captivity. In Morgoth's Ring, when Elven marriage customs are being discussed, it is said that Elves do not have children during times of war, unsettlement, captivity, or hardship
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if orcs are corrupt elves then wouldnt tat possibly change their reproductive tendencies

Eol Telemnar 12-14-2003 03:04 PM

for dubleu:
Yea, I think, since they are corrupted elves! If they are immortal (corrupted elves) then it would have an effect. but if not, then there won't be any effect (because they are not connected in any way to elves.

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar 12-15-2003 05:45 PM

If the orcs were, in a way, controlled by sauron or morgoth, then they would reproduce.

Quote:

Elves don't reproduce in conditions of war or captivity. In Morgoth's Ring, when Elven marriage customs are being discussed, it is said that Elves do not have children during times of war, unsettlement, captivity, or hardship

MY THEORY
The quote about elven reproduction is true, but this fact is true because the elves have a sort of choice over whether to have children. It is not exactly a choice, but I thnk it would be POSSIBLE, although it would never happen, for elves to reproduce in a circumstance where, according to the quote, they would not.
Thus, Sauron could force the orcs to make this 'choice', so that they could reproduce endlessly.

pandora 12-15-2003 06:04 PM

An interesting point raised by Morgoth's Ring is that corrupted Elven spirits may "answer Morgoth's summons" and go to him rather than to Valinor. Presumably these corrupted elven spirits could not be counted on to refrain from breeding during time of war nor from not returning more than once from death, both of which are customs rather than hard rules for elves. Indeed, an evil Yrch might delight in returning over and over again to spite those that he fights. Imagine facing a squad of elite "storm-orcs" that literally have nothing to lose: they know they're coming back while their human enemies die forever. Not fun.

It's an interesting idea but I doubt that Sauron and still less Saruman could issue the "summons" so it still leaves some orcs immortal (perhaps only to the end of the first age when Morgoth is banished?) and most not.

Novberaid 12-15-2003 07:19 PM

I would have to agree that the elves captured by Melkor would have been immortal and would not have lost that trait. The orcs spawned from that union of orcs and men might have been given the same choice as Elrond and Elros. Do they wish to be mortal or immortal? Would Eru have given them the same choice as the Firstborn? Also, we don't seem to hear about Mrs. Orc. And why do orcs seem to reproduce so quickly and the elves always seem to be vastly outnumbered in battle?

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar 12-15-2003 07:20 PM

How can you be immortal but only until the end of the first age? If you die at a certain time, you are not immortal.
Also, mortality is a GIFT from illuvatar. How could Morgoth or Sauron BESTOW mortality on the orcs? If mortality is a gift from illuvatar, then only illuvatar may bestow it, and thu, orcs cannot die of old age. Although Sauron and Morgoth may not have seen it as such, mortality is a gift, not a curse.

Lord of Angmar 12-15-2003 07:55 PM

Tuor I don't quite follow your post. Obviously Morgoth and Sauron could not bestow immortality upon the orcs, but I believe the original thesis of this thread is that orcs would retain their immortality after having been corrupted from Elves by Morgoth. In other words:

1. Iluvatar grants the Elves immortality.
2. Morgoth turns the immortal Elves into Orcs.
3. Ergo, the Orcs are immortal.


This is not a theory that I personally subscribe to, I was merely clearing that up for you since I do not think you fully understood the discussion.

pandora 12-15-2003 07:56 PM

Quote:

we don't seem to hear about Mrs. Orc.
Perhaps for the same reason we don't hear much about Mrs Dwarf.

Quote:

How can you be immortal but only until the end of the first age?
I meant that, once Morgoth is out of the picture the spirits of the dead only have the option to repent or drift away; there is no longer a Valar prepared to summon them to new bodies. I didn't mean that they dropped down dead at the end of the age; just that they might no longer get "extra goes" if they are killed. Unless Sauron could do the re-housing trick which perhaps he could given his title of Necromancer.

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar 12-16-2003 09:34 AM

If you read my post carefully, I said that Morgoth could not make the orcs MORTAL, not he could not make the IMMORTAL. What I was saying was, if they are corrupted elves, they cannot be mortal. And since they are corrupted elves, they are not mortal, they are immortal.

So, in response to the original question, I am saying orcs are immortal, well, as immortal as orcs can be, given all the killing. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 10:35 AM December 16, 2003: Message edited by: Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar ]

Olorin_TLA 12-17-2003 07:08 AM

Well, looking at Appendix B, assumin gBolg son of Azog was born in the year of Azog's death, he was 142 when he died in the Hobbit.

And that's an "at least"!

Olorin_TLA 12-17-2003 07:16 AM

"What is kinda remarkable is that Gorbag was slain in 3019 (III), at the age of more then 500 years, which would suggest his immortality. He was an Uruk-hai, so he was a later breed of orc."

Mariska, could you tell me the source for Gorbag's age? I haven't been able to find it.

Olorin_TLA 12-21-2003 10:38 AM

*hello?*

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar 12-22-2003 01:00 PM

PMing is more effective than posting.

And, although i believe in orcish immortality, 142 years does not imply immortality. The men on Numenor lived that long, at least the noblemen.

Olorin_TLA 12-22-2003 05:39 PM

But not in the Third Age...qnd not when corrupted to the extreme.


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