orcs and goblins- what's the difference???
 

Will someone please explain to me what the difference is between orcs and goblins. Are they the same or are they completely different. Are they almost the same or are they almost completely different. Is it just the names??? Will someone please tell me. Also, why did Tolkien switch from goblins to orcs when he went from the Hobbit to LOTR??? Is anyone else as confused as me?

its all in the name there both the same thing tolkien alternated between both names from time to time

I'm not too sure of the truth but I do have my own theories on this. Goblin is merely another name for Orc. Orc is a translation of the Sindarin orch. Basically, goblin can be used a a sort of slang term to refer to the smaller breeds of orcs. I don't know why Tolkien used goblin in the Hobbit and orc in the LotR. A

im shure the word orc appears in the hobbit but im not 100%

Yes, it did. Gandalf used it when describing the goblins of the Grey Mountains. he said something about "great hobgoblins and orcs of the worst description."

Also, when Tolkien was talking about the goblins chasing silently after the dwarves in the tunnels I think he said something like, "the huge orcs of the mountains went along at a great pace with their arms hanging down to the ground."

Sorry I don't have the exact quotes, but I lent my copy of the Hobbit to a friend, so I can't look them up.

Argh....third time's the charm....

Not to take this out on anyone in particular, but this needs to be understood.

The Hobbit was written as a children's story, so it used well-known (with the exceptions of Hobbits) fantasy stereotypes at the time. Goblins, instead of orcs. Smaug, the Dragon. Happy Elves, Dwarves, etc.

The Lord of the Rings was an epic adventure, for more mature audiences. Tolkien could create more of a story, so creating his own race of bad guys worked a lot better.

Remember, The Hobbit wasn't originally supposed to be part of the Silmarillion/Middle-earth saga; Tolkien found it fit when he started writing LotR. He didn't know that the "hobgoblins" of the Misty Mountains were the same as the Orcs from Angband.

But, for continuity's sake, they're the same thing.

I knew somebody who knew what he was talking about would come along sooner or later. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I hate to disagree

Orc-Bigger than goblins stronger however not so much free will(they were mostly slaves) and lets say not so bright(not dumb or stupid just not bright)I also theorized elsewhere they are a all male society relied on rape as a means of reproduction

Goblins-Samller less powerful but far more independent and intelligent so much so they have their own government system and in fact learnings in history and reading. being alone in the mountains so long its obviuous female goblins must exist in order to create such a vast population(i believe they are very close in behavior to ants therefore rely on a central queen)

Uruk-hai(being combined of the two races) have a multiplied strength and intelligence

I always thought that Goblins were sort of a cave dwelling Orc. The are smaller, faster, can climb up walls. In the movies they attack the fellowship in Moria am I correct? They seem to have larger eyes as well to see better in the dim light. Ors seem larger,dumber and mostly in the service of the bad guys. The Goblins seem to do their own thing.

Neither goblins nor orcs ever climbed up walls in anything Tolkien wrote.

It's interesting to hear people's opinions, but can anyone actually provide evidence suggesting that "orc" and "goblin" are not synonyms? All that I can think of is the quote about "hobgoblins and orcs of the worst description", which might (possibly) suggest that there is a distinction, at the least, between hobgoblins and orcs - though it's quite hard to say, as the word "hobgoblin" is not used elsewhere by Tolkien, as far as I can recall.

I think that, at the very most, the distinction is a loose, "racial" one. I don't think there's any doubt that the Great Goblin, Azog, Grishnakh, Ugluk, and the rest belong to a single class of creatures called yrch.

I wouldn't say that goblins are cleverer than orcs! On the contrary. Orcs were mightier beings in intelligence too, or so I believe.

yes but when have you heard of an orc quoting history

the goblin king in fact knows the history behind bilbo's sword(so do his followers)

Orcs only ask about how good sport hobbits give

Orcs in my opinion resemble neanderthals they have a chief and live in packs while goblins are more feudal with a king and im willing to bet a better knack at inventing(they live in caves...deep in caves)one can assume theyre excellent trap makers for food while orcs chase down their food(although wherew all the food comes from is still a mystery

also one last thing Saruman's uruks can ride wargs as can goblins but ive never heard of orcs riding them. one can only assume the uruks knowledge of this craft came from their goblin predecessors

I'd always thought they were the same in Tolkiens world, just depended upon which race was speaking. I did at one point get the impression during the Chase across Rohan chapters that the Moria orcs were smaller than the Mordor orcs and that maybe the goblins were simply the smaller version.

But honestly I just thought that dwarves and hobbits called them goblins and elves and Men called them orcs, but they were the same.

I may be off on that, but its what I gathered.

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.asp
Goblins, The race of Orcs
Dates: First appeared soon after the Awakening of the Elves; apparently still extant
Origins: Made by Melkor
Race: Orcs
Meaning: Probably originally related to kobolds, spirits said to dwell in mines1
Other Names: Glamhoth, Orcs, Yrch

A name almost synonymous with Orcs. There is some debate about how closely the the two terms are related to one another, and indeed it could be argued that they both effectively relate to the same thing.

The following quote from the foreword to The Hobbit sheds some light on this: "[The word 'Orc'] occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds.)' The fact that the larger kinds are given their own special word might suggest that goblins tend to be smaller Orcs, but the evidence on this point is inconclusive.

The word 'goblin' is also used occasionally and indiscriminately in The Lord of the Rings; it never occurs in the The Silmarillion.

Notes
1 The relationship of 'goblin' to 'kobold' is a theory proposed by the Oxford English Dictionary, which suggests the following derivation (we've taken the liberty of expanding their standard abbreviations):

'Middle English, probably from Anglo-French *gobelin, medieval Latin gobelinus, probably from name diminutive of Gobel, related to Kobold'

The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Current English
In fact, there are at least two other theories. The first concerns two medieval parties, the Guelphs and the Ghibellines. The Guelphs were supposed to have despised their rival Ghibellines so much that their name became a 'bogey' word, and ultimately evolved into modern 'goblin'. The Ghibellines despised the Guelphs in equal measure, and so their name, too, apparently descended to modern times as 'elf'. Ingenious and economical as this theory is, it is almost certainly wrong.

A somewhat more plausible idea relates goblins back to the almost-forgotten fairy figure of Ghob, the King of the Gnomes. In Old English, the earth-spirits who followed him might well have been referred to as Ghoblings, and this gives us a third possible source of the name, somewhat older than the other two.

Orcs and Goblins are the same thing...

Tolkien changed the word in LOTR because the Hobbit was written for children who would need a reference to what he was talking about...but when it came time to write the LOTR, he used Orc because he didn't want readers to have that "fairy-tale" misconception about his goblins being little hob-goblin, trickster type characters...he wanted more of an understanding that they were a perversion of Elves and evil, foul things; the word Goblin does not portray that because it already had been used much in fairie before The Hobbit and people had preconceptions as to what Goblins were...

While it may be easy to think of Orcs as bigger, badder and meaner than smaller Goblins, they are in fact the same creatures, only described just slightly differnetly in the LOTR and the Hobbit because the latter was written for children...(additionally, the Hobbit was written first and Tolkien hadn't incorporated all of his previous ideas concerning Middle Earth into it yet)

for kids
 

Yeah thats true, Being for kids, thats probably why the dwarves were so wimpy and there wasn't much in the way of battle scenes

And because of this name switch, some physical elements were implimented. Everytime in The Hobbit when orcs are dealt with, they are orcs of the mountains, ie goblins. So as we know Saurons Uruks were developed more than this survivors of the Second and First age, these older divisions would appear as stouter and more "elvish" in a sense. Also, in a general non-Tolkien aspect, when one thinks of goblin, they usualy think of a smaller creature, right? (um, right?) While Uruks of Mordor and Isenguard are more Mannish and Humanoid.
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I always thought that the goblins and orcs were the same basic creature. The difference between orcs and goblins is more of a lifestyle difference rather than a physical difference. Orcs my seem bigger and stronger because Sauron wants them to be so they are better in fighters. It seems to me that goblins are orcs that are not completely governed by Sauron. They have their own system of government and can choose what reasons to fight this group or another. Orcs on the other hand don't govern themselves and listen to Sauron and his allies.

Since all Orcs/Goblins are perversions of Elves by Morgoth for the sole purpose of doing his bidding in mockery of Elves, I don't see how Orcs/Goblins would have come to NOT listen to their master, as we have no evidence throughout any of the works that this would have occured

The term "goblin-soldiers" was applied to Saurman's Uruk-hai. I think that proves as much as anything possibly could that the terms "orc" and "goblin" were synonymous as far as Tolkien's world goes.

Great Goblin
 

What was the Great Goblin that recognized Orcrist and Glamdring? Thats as about as close as I saw in his works to a Goblin (orc) king, other than Bolg who led the Goblin Army in the Battle of Five Armies, but Bolg was just the leader (or the strongest goblin), not necessarily a king. Is that right?

A couple of pieces:

A Journey in the Dark, FotR

Obviously, they're pretty much just called Goblins in TH.

Appendix A, III

An Unexpected Party, TH

This same guy is called both an Orc and a Goblin - and he's a big Orc, too, so I don't think you can argue Goblins are smaller.

I don't think that a strong, text-based argument can really be made for Orcs and Goblins being different. The Great Goblin appears to be a king, even if not in name (I don't remember if he's ever called that or not). But it seems fairly typical that where Orcs/Goblins are living on their own (i.e., not as Sauron's/Morgoth's slaves), they have some sort of leadership - The Great Goblin, Azog, Bolg - there even seems to be some kind of history behind Shagrat and Gorbag where they were some kind of leadership. And I think that Ugluk would be somewhat of a leader whether or not he was made so by Saruman.

yes well although obviously they originated the same way goblins and orcs are now two unique groups that can be set apart easily goblins are smaller not because they're wimpy but rather so they need less food which is scarce in the mountains while it was said earlier orcs are bigger because sauron was pumping them up.

since ohobbits and men were originally we not interchange thier names all the time... Aragorn was a large hobbit that walked with long strides.
:eek:
doesn't sound right does it?

just because they started out the same doesnt mean they still are!




There were four goblin soldiers it does noit refer to all but rather four seeing as uruks were goblins and orcs comnbined it makes sense that some would look more like goblins than orcs.

if they are trully the same try to explain why goblins and orcs all of sudden uruk-hai

if there is anything that proves that they are different its the fact that when combined they make a crazy hybrid

Proof Requested.. Here ya go
 

Refer to Message #13

AND from the same site:

"Uruk-hai, The great soldier-Orcs of the later Third Age
Dates: First seen in c.III 2475
Race: Orcs
Pronunciation: ooroo'k-high
Meaning: Literally, 'Orc-people', a name from the Black Speech
Other Names: Great Orcs, Uruks

The great soldier-Orcs that first appeared in the late Third Age; they were larger and stronger than their forebears, and could withstand the light of the Sun. "
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.asp

And to quote your own words :)... How or where did you get that goblins and orcs were separate creatures and that Uruks were a hybrid of the two. I've never heard that before. I was just curious how or where you got that from.

I won't even address how Aragorn is a big hobbit.... ?!?!

Sorry, Morsul, but you're not convincing me. Do you have any textual proof to back this up? Everything I have seen definitely points to the two being the same.

It is generally accepted that Orcs and Goblins are one and the same race, and all the textual evidence points that way, as has been noted in this thread already.

I do, however, still picture Goblins as a particular type of Orc - smaller and better suited to living communally in caves and tunnels - because that is the way that I imagined them when I first read the books.

And I see no reason why Orcs should not come in all shapes and sizes. I rather liked that aspect of the films - the portrayal of different Orc types, and particularly the differentation between the Orcs of Moria with their large cat-like eyes (better suited to darkness?) and the larger fighting Orcs of Mordor and Isengard.

Uruk Hai are also a particular type of Orc (Uruk means Orc), bred (first by Sauron, not Saruman) for strength, aggression and resistance to sunlight, as the piece from the Encyclopaedia of Arda quoted above indicates.

Half-Orcs and Goblin-Men are mentioned, I think, only in reference to the Army of Isengard and it is to be presumed that they were the result of cross-breeding between Men and Orcs by Saruman. Whether there was a difference between the two is not clear, although the use of two different terms might suggest that there was.

Aragorn was never a hobbit...TROTTER was a hobbit, and if I remember correctly, it wasn't Tolkien was finished with the tale that he basicaly realized he needed/wanted/should/discovered that Trotter was in fact Aragorn, and that he should be called Trotter.......additionally, Tolkien never says that hobbits became me or vice versa...although this is alluded to in the cartoon version of Return of the King...

As for Orc/Goblin...I suffice it to say that most of the preceeding entries have covered it

I might be mistaken, but I understood that Uruk were the rather biggish fighting orc types created by Sauron and Uruk-hai were the "improvements" by Saruman.

I might be mistaken, but I can't go check my books right now... if anyone has the time, you may want to look when Frodo and Sam have escaped Minas Morghul and two orcs that were hunting for them approach. One was a smaller breed, sort of like a tracker while the other was a bigger one and I believe the small one called him an "Uruk". If anyone wants to check, I'll appreciate it, if not I guess I'll have to when I have the time.

As I noted above, Uruk simply means Orc. I believe that it is the word for Orc in the Black Speech, although I am not certain of that. It is generally used as an attentuated reference to Uruk-Hai.

Uruk-Hai were bred by Sauron, although Saruman also used them. The misconception that Saruman bred the Uruk-Hai comes, I believe, from the films.

The tracker Orc in Mordor is referred to as Snaga, which is a term used to refer to smaller Orcs. It comes from the Black Speech for "slave". Snaga seems to be a term of abuse, used by larger Orcs, rather than a separate "breed" of Orc.

This should settle it:

Letters #131: To Milton Waldman:

[Tolkien is speaking about the end of the 1st age and how the history of middle earth plays out]

"Also the Orcs (goblins) and other monsters bred by the First Enemy are not wholly destroyed."

We can gather from this sentence that Tolkien considered the terms interchangable? to a degree as he clearly puts goblins in paraenthesis after Orcs...however, we also know that he was more fond of the term Orc rather than goblin, but none-the-less...they are the same thing...

Additionally, and more importantly, Letters #144: To Naomi Mitchison:

"Orcs (the word is as far as I am concerned actually derived from Old English orc 'demon', but only because of its phonetic suitability) are nowhere clearly stated to be of any particular origin. But since they are servants of the Dark Power, and later of Sauron, neither of whom could, or would, produce living things, they must be 'corruptions'. They are not based on direct experience of mine; but owe, I suppose, a good deal to the goblin tradition (goblin is used asa translation in The Hobbit , where orc only occurs once, I think), especially as it appears in George MacDonald, except for the soft feet which I never believed in. The name has the form orch (pl. yrch) in Sindarin and uruk in the Black Speech."

Again, Tolkien himself uses the words interchangable, specifically saying that the translation used in Hobbit was mostly goblin, but once orc...the same creature

Check out this thread for additional information regarding this...

for the record the aragorn is a tall hobbit thing was a swipe at the "orcs and goblins were originally the same and therefore still are" theory

that is to say hobbits according to the text may have been originally a type of man so since they were once the same race according to orc-goblin logic they still are the same race.(it was a joke i of course was being sarcastic)

Everyone says there is little room for evolution and yet we see some men evolved into hobbits and also orcs(if we are to believe urks are just new versions of them as are goblins) also evolved into different categories. so either they are two different races or they have evolved....which is it?

so the word is interchanged every so often big deal.

It still stands that although they may be of the same race they are different subspecies

this thread by the way is one of the many many places goblin+orc=uruk-hai is mentioned

most notably

also more on the line(because youi'll all attack that by sayings its the movie not the book since its PJ's interpretation someone thinks thats what happened)

anyway more on the line is the relative powers list
would you look at that goblins and orcs listed sepretely why would they do that if they're the same race hmmm....

There may be little room for evolution in terms of apes evolving into men, but I don't see why races should not become specifically adapted to particular living conditions over a few thousand generations. Maybe Morgoth even "created" them that way. Certainly, the Uruk-Hai did not evolve, but were specifically bred by Sauron.

I'm not sure what Formendacil is doing on the list( :p ;) ) , but I believe that lmp has since removed Goblins as a separate category to take account of this very point. The list is, in any event, not definitive but represents lmp's opinion with input from those members participating in the debate. And there are some parts of it that remain rather hotly contested ...

Because the creator of that list is taking suggestions as to placement of persons/types and no one has gotten around to correcting him on that point yet...

Sweet!

I have my own place on LMP's Great List.

Albeit a lowish one...

However, to the subject at hand...

Morsul, I really hate to put it so bluntly, but using other Downers as an authority is absurd folly. If that were permissible, you could use yourself as an authority, and we would all have to agree with you- even though we don't- because you are a Barrow-Downer.

The only person who's words we can take as authoritative are those belonging to J.R.R. Tolkien. And, as far as I can see, there has been a lot of evidence presented on this thread that Tolkien used Goblin and Ork interchangeably (albeit the first dominated The Hobbit while the second dominated all other works). I have yet to see a smidgeon of evidence that Uruk-hai (meaning literally Ork-people) were in any was a crossbreeding of "Orks and goblins".

Mind you, since Orks and Goblins are one and the same, and Uruk refers, in colloquial ork-speech, to larger orks, it is entirely possible- though foolish to the point of tomfoolery, to say that Uruks are bred from Orks and Goblins. One could also say that Goblins are bred from Orks and Uruks, or that Orks are bred from Uruks and Goblins.

The three terms are interchangeable- save that Uruk, as applied in everyday Orkish, is used solely for the larger, more dominant members of the race. Snaga is the applicable term for the smaller ones.

The main point for goblins being different than Orcs seems to be size. However, I think this is being looked at rather wrongly. The mountain-dwelling orcs/goblins are almost certainly smaller. This is alluded to in several places - the Hobbit, the "mountain maggots" in the Uruk-Hai chapter of TTT, etc. This is not an absolute rule - Azog, for example, was quite a large Orc. However, the mountain orcs are generally smaller. This is not, however, because they are goblins, nor are they called goblins simply because they are smaller. They are just a smaller variety of orcs. Orcs are also goblins. It is just an unfortunate point that the smaller sort are the kind in the Hobbit and the Hobbit almost always uses the word goblin. These are two separate issues that seem to have merged incorrectly into one.

From Morsul's first Downer quote: This is not correct anyway. Orcs and Goblin men. Saruman bred Orcs and half-Orcs together. Even barring that, this wouldn't make sense based on your arguments: orcs bred with supposedly smaller goblins would not make larger Uruk-Hai.

no im not saying thats this person is an authoritative source.

what im saying is with this idea floating around so long one could see why my ideas got crosslinked and i mistook movie for book at that point

thats what I'm saying thank you someone understands my point you dont have to agree with it just understand what i mean

I have to admit i was nontoohappy to see my striderhobbit joke was taken seriously by most the fact that it was so misunderstood was alot more devastating than people disagreeing with it(after a forum is about debate is it not :D )

hey I found something Im surprised no one brought up i found this on another site

this is referring to a blooper in the film but the book reference was useful for here

This topic also has been discussed before.
Take a good look at this .

Take a Biter this
 

There is at least one mention of the word Orc in the Hobbit, I have read back through the post although Orcrist is mentioned, it's translation into Goblin-cleaver has not I believe, if Tolkien says that, it's good enough for me. I think maybe that some are confused with Tolkiens descriptions on size. Stature can vary in all races, think of the pygmy and the zulu, both are of the same race, Orcs were said to have differed from tribe to tribe, There is also the air of Small being (wimpy I believe someone used) Less, and Tall being Great, the only analogy I can think of at this moment is that Mike Tyson, Joe Frazier and Rocky Marciano were all smaller men in their weight division, but they blew away most of the taller men put in front of them, in the same way as Gimli carved his way through Big Tall Fearsome Uruk-hai. So to me Goblin means Orc, the small, the tall, the scrawny and the large ones who had gorged too many Man and Potatoe Pies. The Uruk-hai and The Half-orcs were bred from any one of the Orc race/tribes

I just wanted to point out that their is a difference between orcs and goblins in the movies. Now I know that this might just be PJ's interpretation, but in FotR, Gandlf, during his conversation with Elrond after Frodo's rescue at the ford, says: This is in reference to Saruman. It suggests that orcs and goblins are two different creatures, because if they were the same, I don't think crossing an orc with an orc would give you an Uruk-hai. However, this is just the movies, so PJ could have added this. I checked in the book, but couldn't find it. Correct me if I'm wrong.