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-   -   Far from the Orc I love (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=5958)

Kalimac 04-03-2002 09:09 PM

Far from the Orc I love
 
NO, this topic isn't as scary as the header! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. What I'm wondering about - and I do apologize if this has come up before - is where are all the Orc women? It would be easy to think that they don't even exist, except for that passage in the Silmarillion "For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the children of Iluvatar" so presumably there were female Orcs somewhere (there's also that reference to Gollum killing "a small goblin-imp" in "The Hobbit" but that's more easily explained away as being non-canon). So presumably there are Orc-women (and children) SOMEWHERE, but where in LOTR could they be? Unless they're like female dwarves and blend in so much with the men that nobody could tell the difference, but still, there don't seem have been any Orc home villages or anything, and obviously the women wouldn't be hanging around guarding Cirith Ungol or anything like that - at least, you'll be looking a while before you find any Orc referred as anything except "he". It's understandable that they wouldn't be referred to much - it's hard to picture Shagrat or Grishnakh pining while on guard duty, wistfully humming "Black is the color of my true love's hair" while remembering happier times, but still...where were they?

LadyArwen 04-04-2002 04:20 AM

Hm ... now this is a very interesting topic. To tell the truth, I'm far from a Tolkien expert, though I do love his books - I think your best bet is to ask one of the Ops, the Three Wise Men of this site [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Neferchoirwen 04-04-2002 06:03 AM

Oh okay. I thought Tolkien's works are being integrated into musicals. I saw Lady Nazgul with a Les Miz going on. Oh well...
But the all-male orc issue really seems to be unclear.
btw...I love 'Fiddler on the Roof'

Amanaduial the archer 04-04-2002 06:36 AM

Quote:

Unless they're like female dwarves and blend in so much with the men that nobody could tell the difference
has ne1 here read terry pratchett books?(if not, Y NOT!?)it says that all dwarves grow beards and there is atually one dwarf called cherie who every1 thinks is a bit strange as she...wears a skirt and a bra!shock horror!it could be something like that.
i thought about this a bit while reading lotr, but the thought of 2 orcs...together....*shudder*AAAAArgh!noooo!must not go there!
......black is the color of my true loves hair......oh my dear shagrat, when will you be coming home from murdering and pillaging?*sigh*.....hmmmmm
lol
amy

Nevtalathiel 04-04-2002 10:13 AM

Yes, I have read Terry Pratchett and I have a theory that Gimli is really female, the only female member of the fellowship and it would explain his "close friendship" with Legolas [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] Maybe it's just my twistsed mind which gets this though! LOL

Eruhen 04-04-2002 11:47 AM

I might have to go with the 'twisted mind' theory that you thought up, Nevtalathiel. The books specifically say that Gimli is the SON of Gloin, not his daughter or anything else. Although of course you're entitled to your opinion, strange as it may sound to others! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Nevtalathiel 04-04-2002 12:38 PM

But if you've read Terry Pratchett, you'll see that all dwarves are refered to as "he", even if they're female! Maybe its still my twisted mind though!

Starbreeze 04-04-2002 12:53 PM

Ok, when I first saw this title I thought of Fiddler on the Roof - where whichever of the daughters it is, is saying goodbye to her father before going off to Siberia.

Maybe orcs aren't born as such, maybe they're like amoebas and sorta grow from each other, or maybe they are born from "test tubes"?

Amanaduial the archer 04-04-2002 02:22 PM

Quote:

it would explain his "close friendship" with Legolas
hmmm...ok really could hav done without that new and rather disturbing revelation!*shudder*. this board is like an aol chat i had on aol about whether sam was gay or not....
lol
amy

Gorothlammothiel 04-04-2002 02:57 PM

StarBreeze, Orcs like Amoeba? They were once elves......tortured and mutilated by the dark powers.....does that sound familiar to you? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Birdland 04-04-2002 03:29 PM

I can't think of anything worse than being a female Orc. (shudder) They treat their comrades-in-arms so badly, can you image how they treat their women-folk?

Really can't picture an Orc coming home to the little woman, shouting "Honey, I'm home!"

Aralaithiel 04-04-2002 05:23 PM

NO!!!! Not "Fiddler on the Roof"!!!!! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]
ACK!!!!
Actually, it is a good musical.
On topic, I'm with the Orcs as "test tube" babies. I don't even wanna think about orc reporduction! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
And no Gimli is NOT female!!!!!! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Nuranar 04-04-2002 08:03 PM

Kalimac, I'm glad you brought this up! I've been wondering how to state the question myself. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Here's another thing: Anyone have any thoughts on how the orcs living in Moria managed to live? I mean, what did they have to eat? There were so many of them!

Kalimac 04-04-2002 09:49 PM

Thanks, Nuranar [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. It didn't seem like a a very serious topic but I was curious. And Starbreeze, actually I was listening to my CD of "Fiddler on the Roof" while I was posting, so the the title sort of came naturally (and to be honest it was meant to be a eye-catching). And that is the song where the girl is going off to Siberia to join her reform-minded fiance, and if you've ever seen Siberia ... well, it's an even sadder song after that.

The only theory I've been able to come up with - such as it is - is that the Orc females are all in places like the Misty Mountains and safe underground holes like those, which is why they don't come into LOTR at all - they're keeping the home fires burning, probably in more ways than one. Orcs don't like being out in the daylight anyway (except for the Fighting Uruk-Hai, but well, they were weird anyway) so there are probably hidden colonies in places like those where the off-duty Orcs presumably return. I can't see them marrying ("Till mutual backstabbing us depart") but there'd probably be a good bit of domestic violence. Though honestly it's easy to picture the Orc-women giving as good as they get.

Nevtalathiel 04-05-2002 03:26 AM

Sorry if I've disturbed you Amanaduial the archer, maybe I should come with a warning label-"comments may offend or disturb, not suitable for under 8s or those of a squeamish disposition"

On a *slightly* more serious note, there must have been orc-women if Saruman was cross-breeding them to make the uruk-hai, unless he was using genetic engineering, which somehow doesn't sound right!

Amanaduial the archer 04-05-2002 11:51 AM

u sayin im under 8?ah, now im really insulted!nah kiddin, but a good point about saruman, i thought about that while watching the film but not for to long because at that point in the film several things happen at once, and my mind track was not exactly on just what is under lurtzs loin cloth.....oh god.....anyway, dont u see that slightly smaller looking orc who when she sees lurtz emerging faints?thats probably his mother.

Quote:

They treat their comrades-in-arms so badly, can you image how they treat their women-folk?
surely that woukd be the point?half their comrades in arms might well be their womenfolk!
whenever i hear that song now in fiddler on the roof, im gonna think of poor shagrat far from home....*tries to stiffle a laugh*....*fails miserably*....
lol
me

Nevtalathiel 04-05-2002 12:14 PM

not necessarily under 8, maybe just with a squeamish disposition [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

having that uruk-hai kind of burst out of that bubble of mud in the film was just wierd and *really* made me wonder about orc reproduction!

mordor136 04-05-2002 09:16 PM

I thought I saw alot of them at the Miss Mordor Pagent. tolkien only says what they were in the begining not how they are bred.
meaning perhaps there are no orc women.

Neferchoirwen 04-06-2002 12:44 AM

...and maybe they just don't reproduce at all. Maybe the consequence they (as former elves) had to face was to never reproduce. I think it's an appropriate punishment, don't you think?

[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: Neferchoirwen ]

Amarinth 04-06-2002 08:04 AM

Quote:

The only theory I've been able to come up with - such as it is - is that the Orc females are all in places like the Misty Mountains and safe underground holes like those, which is why they don't come into LOTR at all - they're keeping the home fires burning, probably in more ways than one. Orcs don't like being out in the daylight anyway (except for the Fighting Uruk-Hai, but well, they were weird anyway) so there are probably hidden colonies in places like those where the off-duty Orcs presumably return. I can't see them marrying ("Till mutual backstabbing us depart") but there'd probably be a good bit of domestic violence. Though honestly it's easy to picture the Orc-women giving as good as they get.
lol! you're consistently eloquent AND funny, kalimac. i was mulling over your post and arrived at the same guesses, that is, places in the lotr where a considerable population of orcs have been mentioned. incidentally, it may be possible that there are only a small proportion of women-orc relative to the ubiquitous male, just enough to, ah, keep the evil bosses' business open. don't need too many women around anyway as the likes of laundry, dusting etc. are not level one priority in your normal orc household. funny, i had the same impression about there being few women elves --

uruk-hai are weird -- LOL -- you mean aside from them being ORCS? [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

---------------------------------------------
every man's life is a path to the truth -- hesse

Keeper of Dol Guldur 04-06-2002 11:56 AM

My guess is that there were so many fewer female orcs than males, that the powerful orcs had herums (I doubt I spelled that right) and that is how they multiplied so quickly. One male orc times ten female orcs equals lots of baby orcs. Especially if they gave birth to more than one at a time. Saruman's pits in the movie, I believe simply sped up and enhanced the growth process so he could have an instant army.

Kalimac 04-06-2002 09:04 PM

Amarinth - thank you [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [Kalimac blushes]. I meant that the Uruk-Hai was were extra weird, so to speak, because of the way Saruman "genetically engineered" them. (How DID he do that exactly? I can't picture him with a lab full of petri dishes in Orthanc. And in the movie they say he "by foul craft crossed Orcs with Goblin men" which is quite a trick when you think about it, but they never do show us exactly how).

Harems would make sense. A lot of animals have those battles between males in which the winner gets to keep the loser's harems; it seems realistic that the Orcs would be into that sort of thing.

Orodhromeus 04-07-2002 06:17 AM

Saruman didn't create the Uruk-Hai, at least not in the books' world. They existed in Mordor before the War of the Ring (we saw them in Book VI anyway). I can't tell you more than that though.

Lothiriel Silmarien 04-07-2002 03:18 PM

I can make a guess-maybe it's like the women of Haradrim and in the East. It says (I forget which book I as reading-pretty sure it was Unfinished Tales)But anyway,it says that the women from the East and the Haradrim women were very man-like and they could fight too. They used to live around Mirkwood or something and the men who lived there would try and burn their homes or something and the women would actually fight back. Cuz they were big and beastly-like. That's probably how the women orcs are if there are any-beastly and easily mistaken for the men. Who knows, maybe there were women orcs fighting in The Lord of the Rings. My only other guess is that orcs are bred how Saruman made the Uruk-Hai. I know it says that orcs were once elves, tortured and all that, but maybe when Morgoth made orcs, he changed something to make them multiply in different ways. Which is a pretty bizzare thing and most likely isn't the way! By the way, I hope there are no orc women because that is a very distubing thought!! Who would wanna do that with an orc, even if they are orcs themself!!! Ew...disturbing.Oh!!! Maybe if there are no orc women, the orcs multiply from the women of Haradrim or something like that. Which is yet another disturbing thought but maybe that was it.

Rosa Underhill 04-08-2002 01:04 AM

Quote:

there must have been orc-women if Saruman was cross-breeding them to make the uruk-hai
I recall something in the books about "breeding orcs and men". The thought made me cringe. Anyway...

I'm thinking that the orc-lasses were fighters just like the orc-lads. And I think the harem idea is a little backwards. Apparently, there are very few she-orcs, so you can't have a female harem. I'm thinking that the orcs are really ruled by their ladies and, well, you can take it from there. Of course, this theory would have to suggest that orcs give birth (if they even give birth at all) to litters of more than one....kid? Pup?

Ruthwen 04-08-2002 06:09 AM

I think... I think most of the Orcs we see (Shagrat etc) are actually the females. It would explain their love of shiny things, like the mithril coat and the Ring, wouldn't it?

Nah, ignore me. I'm just being stupid. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Nevtalathiel 04-08-2002 06:58 AM

Quote:

but they never do show us exactly how
Kalimac, is it really something you want to know? Maybe orc reproduction is just one of the things we have to accept that happens without really knowing HOW, which is possibly a GOOD thing!

goldwine 04-08-2002 11:27 PM

Well... I have pictures in my head which don't seem to want to go away! Thanks guys! Perhaps some of the orcs were female? Do we only assume that they were male because of their names etc? This is the nicest solution and won't give me orc-breeding nightmares!

Kalimac 04-09-2002 12:51 AM

Nevtalathiel, I think it was a poor choice of words on my part [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] . What I meant was "explain how" - a couple of lines by Saruman would be sufficient - NO show-and-tell for that part please, Mr. Jackson! Rosa mentioned the part about "breeding Orcs and men" and it did sound sort of like Saruman was the evil and much more dramatic precursor to Gregor Mendel, that's all.

Anyway I'm still thinking the Orc-women were underneath some mountain somewhere, though it would make sense that they'd be fighting along with they guys, except that they're all called "he"...wait...that's it! Maybe Black Speech only has one pronoun! (Like Turkish, where "o" means he, she and it - depending on context). So when they speak Westron, they're not used to using different pronouns, so they just use "he" to mean he, she, and it. That would explain it. It wouldn't explain the lack of young Orcs in the fortresses and so forth, but then, the war hasn't been going on THAT long.

Nevtalathiel 04-09-2002 02:52 AM

Quote:

Saruman was the evil and much more dramatic precursor to Gregor Mendel
Was he crossing wrinkly orsc with non-wrinkly orcs and then crossing their offspring and seeing how many came out wrinkly?

The lack of a female pronoun in the Black Speech sounds like a good idea, though!

KingCarlton 04-09-2002 04:19 AM

With the Orcs being featured mostly at battles in the story, which is not a proper place for females and children, I'd guess it was not important to mention them.
That they exist has to be taken as a given, everything cannot be made specific....in a story.

Know Peace

[img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Nevtalathiel 04-09-2002 04:37 AM

Ooh, King Carlton, you might want to be careful in case you get mobbed by a group of feminists, or worse feminist orcs!

Orodhromeus 04-09-2002 07:40 AM

Quote:

I can make a guess-maybe it's like the women of Haradrim and in the East. It says (I forget which book I as reading-pretty sure it was Unfinished Tales)But anyway,it says that the women from the East and the Haradrim women were very man-like and they could fight too. They used to live around Mirkwood or something and the men who lived there would try and burn their homes or something and the women would actually fight back. Cuz they were big and beastly-like. That's probably how the women orcs are if there are any-beastly and easily mistaken for the men. Who knows, maybe there were women orcs fighting in The Lord of the Rings. My only other guess is that orcs are bred how Saruman made the Uruk-Hai. I know it says that orcs were once elves, tortured and all that, but maybe when Morgoth made orcs, he changed something to make them multiply in different ways. Which is a pretty bizzare thing and most likely isn't the way! By the way, I hope there are no orc women because that is a very distubing thought!! Who would wanna do that with an orc, even if they are orcs themself!!! Ew...disturbing.Oh!!! Maybe if there are no orc women, the orcs multiply from the women of Haradrim or something like that. Which is yet another disturbing thought but maybe that was it.
Haradrim (Southrons) & Easterlings were all human (though more dark-skinned than the Númenóreans, Dunlendings and other human of western M-E). They had nothing to do with orcs. They were just allies of Mordor.

KingCarlton 04-09-2002 08:03 AM

Mobbed by feminist Orcs...
[img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

[img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Nevtalathiel 04-09-2002 08:07 AM

That could make for an interesting fanfic couldn't it, the battle by female orcs for the right to fight. Hmm...perhaps I'll leave that to someone else!

Amanaduial the archer 04-09-2002 02:20 PM

hmmmmmm, interestin......u know this muct be one of the most bizarre topics on the whoe of barrowdowns!

dragongirlG 04-09-2002 02:50 PM

uh...weird. But I do believe there were female orcs, and they weren't with Shagrat or any of the Orcs we saw before. Then again, I never thought of goblins as female. Strange topic...hahaha maybe Saruman did in-vitro fertilization? It'd make more sense than genetic engineering. *shudders* I have strange scenes going through my mind...yuck!

Nevtalathiel 04-10-2002 04:52 AM

Please, stop there! I never thought I was squeamish or easily disturbed before, but IVF for orcs is just too much, even for me! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

Mithadan 04-10-2002 07:32 AM

The "breeding pods" seen in Saruman's pits in the Movie are an embellishment by Peter Jackson and appear nowhere in the books. Its safe to assume that there were female orcs, though their culture is unknown.

Starbreeze 04-10-2002 08:53 AM

Quote:

actually I was listening to my CD of "Fiddler on the Roof" while I was posting, so the the title sort of came naturally
Hehe funny, coz round about the time that you were posting I was also listening to the Fiddler on the Roof soundtrack (my friends though, not my own)! Funny coincidence!


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