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Findegil 11-24-2017 04:37 PM

Perlude of [b]The Silmarillion[/b]
Before we start anything else we should probabaly discuss this prelude:

Quenta Silmarillion
PRE-ED-01 <LQ {Ălfwine's note:
}These histories were written by {Pengolo­}[Pengolodh] the Wise of Gondolin, both in that city before its fall, and afterwards PRE-ED-02{at Tathrobel in the Lonely Isle, ToleressŰa}, PRE-LQ-01{after the return unto the West. In their making he used much the writings of R˙mil the Elfsage of Valinor, chiefly in the annals of Valinor and the account of tongues, and he used also the accounts that are preserved in the Golden Book.}< after the Elves had returned into the West. In their making he used much the writings of Rumil the Elf-sage of Valinor concerning other matters than the wars of Beleriand; and he used also the accounts that are preserved by the Elves of EressŰa in the Golden Book.> PRE-ED-03{The work of Pengolo­ I learned much by heart, and turned into my tongue, some during my sojourn in the West, but most after my return to Britain.
pus cwaep Ălfwine Widlast:
Fela bid on Westwegum werum uncudra,
wundra ond wihta, wlitescyne lond,
eardgeard ylfa ond esa bliss.
Lyt aenig wat hwylc his longad sie
pam pe eftsides yldu getwaefed.
Translator's note:
}The histories are here given in English of this day PRE-ED-03.{, translated from the version of PRE-LQ-02{Eriol}<Ereol> of Leithien, as the Gnomes called him, who was Ălfwine of PRE-LQ-03{Angelcynn}<Angolcynn that is now England>. Such other matters as Ălfwine took direct from the Golden Book, together with his account of his voyage, and his sojourn in ToleressŰa, are given elsewhere.
[Footnote to the text: Specimens (not here) are extant
(a). of the original EressŰan form and script
(b). of the annals as written by Ălfwine in ancient English]}
Here begins the Silmarillion or history of the Silmarils>

ArcusCalion 11-24-2017 11:28 PM

I actually object to 01. Why could these accounts have not been made in Erressea? The Elves came often to Numenor,and the writings of Numenor were what informed the scribes of Gondor and Arnor, of whom came many of Elrond's books of lore which Bilbo translated. I see no reason therefore for 01.

As for 02, what is the source of the replacement passage?

gondowe 11-25-2017 07:17 AM

I dont remember if this was dicussed years ago in other threads, but although Eriol/Aelfwine should be the besst way of trasmission, it must be through the Thains Book.
So, in my opinion Aelfwine should be removed and the "Findegils Copy of the Thains Book" with all its contents, should be trasmissed to our days (read Tolkien) through other ways (archeological?).
And in my opinion the trasmision from the elder days should be Rumil, etc--->Pengolod----->Numenor--->Arnor, Gondor----->Hobbits (in all their generations)----> Findegil----->our days.
So, Quenta Silmarillion, Ainulindale, Valaquenta, etc,etc should have a trasmision Rumil,etc----->Pengolod-----> Numenor.
What do you think?

ArcusCalion 11-25-2017 09:21 AM

As I understood it it was Rumil (Annals of Aman, Lhammas, Valaquenta, Ainulindale) --> Pengolodh (Grey Annals, Lhammasathen, Quenta Silmarillion, various lore things) in Erressea using the stories of the returned Exiles --> Numenorean scholars via Eressean Elves --> The Faithful of Numenor (with added Numenorean histories and Akallabeth by Elendil) --> Arnor and Gondor historians (of whom Findegil was chief) --> brought to Imladris and kept as books of lore (some) --> Bilbo translates into Westron --> Becomes the Red Book of Westmarch and Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit is added --> Merry and Pippin and Sam add various Shire and Gondor and Arnor lore tidbits --> Tolkien supposedly discovers and translates into English.

In a side note, there existed also the contemporary Rumil --> Pengolodh --> Aelfwine --> Tolkien path, but this we have decided to ignore.

gondowe 11-25-2017 09:49 AM

Findegil is the last because is from Eldarion time in Fourth Age.

ArcusCalion 11-25-2017 01:37 PM

aaaah I see thank you gondowe

It is interesting. Our Silmarillion is a combination of Bilbo's Translations from the Elvish and Aelfwine/Eriol's Book of Lost Tales, since we pull from both sources. I think another (interesting and unrelated) project might be to edit all the documents in their separate entirety in order to have them conform to the standard of canon we set out in these TftE. Thus we create a Quenta Silmarillion using only the LQ, QS, and Q documents, simply updating where needed, and an Annals of Aman, Grey Annals, Lhammas, Ambarkanta, Book of Lost Tales, Athrabeth, and all the others as unique and individual documents of lore, all edited separately in order to conform to this canon. A vast (and possibly impossible) undertaking, but one that would no doubt be extremely interesting.

Findegil 11-28-2017 01:29 PM

Sorry, I didn't put any comments about the changes online. That would have explained some questions:

PRE-ED-01: We decised to remove Ălfwine, so he has to go here.

PRE-ED-02: I agree to ArcusCalion that this is probabaly a bit overdone, but for the sack of safety I would still say removal might be better.

PRE-LQ-01: Here my editing could be clearer. This is actually a change done by Tolkien himself in the last version he left us.

PRE-ED-03: I used this editing mark two times by accident. I will change the second to PRE-ED-04. But both changes have the same reasoning behind them: they are again Ălfwine speaking, which we have to remove.

PRE-QL-02 & PRE-QL-03: These document changes that Tolkien did, but they are removed by our editing.


ArcusCalion 11-28-2017 01:50 PM

I would say for the PRE-ED-02 that there is really no reason to remove it, even for the idea of "safety."

ArcusCalion 05-06-2018 12:26 AM

I did not wish to make a new thread for this, but I have some suggestions for little prefaces for The Black Years and The Fading Years.

For The Black Years:

TBY-01 <Appendix B These were the dark years for Men of Middle-earth, but the years of the glory of N˙menor. Of events in Middle-earth the records are few and brief, and their dates are often uncertain.>
For The Fading Years:

TFY-01 <Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age {Those}These were the Fading Years, and in them the last flowering of the Elves east of the Sea came to its winter. In that time the Noldor walked still in the Hither Lands, mightiest and fairest of the children of the world, and their tongues were still heard by mortal ears. Many things of beauty and wonder remained on earth in that time, and many things also of evil and dread: Orcs there were and trolls and dragons and fell beasts, and strange creatures old and wise in the woods whose names are forgotten; Dwarves still labored in the hills and wrought with patient craft works of metal and stone that none now can rival. But the Dominion of Men was preparing and all things were changing, until at last the Dark Lord arose in Mirkwood again.>
I think since the First Age got one, the second and third should have prefaces as well.

Findegil 05-06-2018 02:15 PM

I like these suggestions.

For me they are okay.


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