Aragorn and Arwen Are NOT RELATED
 

Earendil and Elwing gave birth to Elrond and Elros. Elrond, choosing to be of elf-kind, became ruler of the Rivendell and had three children with Celebrian; Elladin, Elrohir, and Arwen. Elros, choosing to be mortal (man-kind), became the first High King of Numenor. But, twenty-five(ish) kings later the throne is corrupted by Ar Pharazon. Because of this, Amandil stepped in and made his son, Elendil, king in a new blood line of kings, since Ar-Pharazon was trapped away forever. Elendil is Isildur's father. And we all know that Aragorn is a descended of Isildur. So NO, contrary to popular belief, Aragorn and Arwen are NOT RELATED!!!! ... Your comments on the subject?

Emphases mine, but the comments on the subject are all Tolkien's.

See where Aragorn's genealogy overlaps with Arwen's. They are distant relatives.

The mistake in the thesis is that Amandil too was related to Elros.

I think that Amandil's ancestor was the younger brother of the Numenor king, or something like that.
In a way, Arwen is Aragorn't great (etc) aunt.
Aragorn is also related to Galadriel, Turin, and many other people.

Elder sister of Tar-Meneldur, actually.

Actually, Arwen is Aragorn's first cousin, removed something like 50 times (all the generations from Vardamir, son of Elros, who was her first cousin, with no removes). In terms of consanguinity (shared blood) this is such a diminution of relationship that many of us probably have more closely related parents or grandparents than this, if there's a common ethnicity. Of course, there would have been plenty of intermarriage in the descendants of Elros.

For example, Aragorn is descended from Aranarth, son of Arvedui, the first Chieftain of the Northern Dúnedain, by both his parents--meaning that his parents, Arathorn II and Gilraen, were more closely related than he was to Arwen. As another example, Aranarth himself was the son of two descendants of Elendil: Arvedui from Isildur and Fíriel daughter of Ondoher from Anárion. And those are only the documented cases.

Probably, already by the time of Amandil and Elendil, it would have been nigh on impossible, if not totally impossible, for a high nobleman such as the Lord of Andúnië to marry someone who was not a descendant of Elros.. After that many generations on an endogamous island, probably everyone had some touch of Elrosian blood. In fact, the marriage of Valacar of Gondor (an ancestor of Fíriel and thus of Aragorn) to Vidumavi, daughter of Vidugavia the Northman, was quite possibly the ONLY instance in Aragorn's ancestry since the Akallabêth of a forefather marrying a woman who was not a descendant of Elros.

And, of course, any descendant of Elros is, de facto a close relative than Arwen, because the shared ancestor is not Elros, but his father Eärendil, who is a step farther back in the family tree. In fact, Éowyn would probably have been a closer relative than Arwen, since her grandmother was Morwen of Lossarnach, who was probably of noble blood and thus almost CERTAINLY a descendant somehow, somewhere, of Elendil--who is a whole Second Age of descent closer in ancestry to Aragorn than Eärendil.

It's like the crowned heads of Europe... if we all had as much genealogical information as they do, we would all be finding recurring ancestors.

with so many cousins X times removed, the family tree would look more like a spider web.
Anyways, Aragorn is related to Arwen, and that's the proof.
Formendacil, you must know all the books by heart - literally - if you remember all the names and marriages!

Well, Aragorn had a direct line to Elendil also. I'd say even more direct then Eowen since his was father-to-son in the elder line (thru Isuldur).
Also, in Aragorn's case, there is no "probably" or "ALMOST" certainly, his descent is documented.

Still, it's an interesting observation that even a "wild shieldmaiden of the North" (Eowen) was likely kin to Arwen :D and had a (very diluted) strain of Maia blood in her (from Melian).

Puddleglum: Formendacil's point was that Eowyn and Aragorn (likely both descendants of Elendil) may be more closely related than are Arwen and Aragorn (both descendants of Earendil and Elwing).

Depends how you look at it. Arwen is only a few generations removed from their common ancestor, plus Aragorn must be related to her (and himself, for that matter) many, many ways– I mean, I can't see any way for Isildur's line not to be pretty darned inbred. So I think they would likely share more genes. (Not that anyone in Middle-earth knows about genetics, of course, weird fan-fics notwithstading.)

Well, Aragorn's son was known as "Eldarion of the Dozen Toes".

If you tell me how any generations are between Elendil and Elros, I will be able to tell you how much maiar is in Aragorn, but I'll have to assume that either only one side of the family is descendants of Luthien, or both are - Since it's kinda hard to figure out when they married their kin and when they didn't. I've already done that for Elrond and Elros: they are 9/16 elf, 6/16 human, and 1/16 Maiar. To be specific, 5/16 Sindar, 3.5/16 Noldor, 0.5/16 Vaniar, 4/16 Beor, 1/16 Haleth, 1/16 Hador, and 1/16 Maiar. These calculations are exact. I love math, don't you?

1. There are twenty-two generations between Elendil and Elros (i.e not counting either of them).

2. Aragorn is definitely descended from Lúthien through both his parents.

Unfortunately, you can't get anything like an exact answer, because as you say we just don't know enough details.

Either you have to assume that neither Arathorn's nor Gilraen's family trees contained any previous intermarriages– which is downright impossible– or you ignore the number of generations altogether and assume the proportions remained more-or-less constant among Elros' direct descendants– which is highly unlikely, not to mention giving a rather surprising result. (Well, you wanted to do the maths yourself... be my guest.)

The most detailed genealogical breakdown of any character that I have seen is in the Encyclopedia of Arda's for Elrond, in the first footnote:

Obviously, the same would hold true for Elros, despite his choice to become mortal. As genealogy is usually traced to the nearest common ancestors, for Aragorn and Arwen, it would be, as has been said, Eärendil and Elwing. Being full brothers, Elrond and Elros would have identical lineage, but beyond that point, the lines drift apart. By the time of Aragorn's birth, the drift is continental in scale and the consanguinity is so dilute, it would take an immortal Elf to even think of them as kin. But they are related — incredibly distantly, but related nonetheless.

So, is the topic starter coming back?

Which was essentially my point, regarding blood. However, when you said "it would take an immortal Elf to even think of them as kin," I began to muse over it again, and I think there's something significant to be noted about the relationship of Elrond to the House of Elendil. From the time of Valandil's fostered childhood in Imladris to Aragorn's fostered childhood in Imladris, Elrond goes out of his way to make relationships with the Line of Isildur.

Obviously, this is partly political--Elrond is maintaining the only tangible remnant of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men that persists through the Third Age, and especially after the fall of Arthedain, manages to cultivate a whole society of Men that thinks and acts in tandem with his diminishing enclave in Imladris. However, I think it's more than that.

It is not, I think in keeping with the general tenor of this thread, a kinship based entirely on blood, given that there is a distinct privileging of the royal line, although insofar as this royal line is ultimately grounded in that blood, it plays a part. I think a much bigger element has to do with "the hands of the King"/"hands of a healer" element. As Aragorn says of Elrond, in "The Houses of Healing" "'Would that Elrond were here, for he is the eldest of all our race, and has the greater power."--our race.

Racially, the uniqueness that Elrond and Aragorn share is the blood of the half-Elven. However, I don't think it's Elven blood or Mannish blood, or the admixture of both, that binds them as a "race"--I think it's that descent from Lúthien, to which I am inclined to ascribe the "hands of the King"/"hands of a healer." In other words, my thesis is that Elrond has maintained a close connection to the Line of Isildur because in it's "Númenorean purity" it has come closest to preserving or building a "race of Lúthien."

Furthermore, I think the relationship between Elrond and the Isildurioni is side-lit in an interesting way by the relationship of the Sons of Elrond to the Isildurioni. Note, first of all, that Elrond isn't marriage to Celebrían until the early 3rd Age, and that his sons are thus contemporaries of the sons of Valandil. (Elladan and Elrohir, according to the Tale of the Years, were born 130 T.A., while Valandil son of Isildur reigned 2 T.A. until 249 T.A.). I find this interesting because Elladan and Elrohir are often seen, in our few glimpses of them, acting as companions to the Chieftains of the Dúnedain--to my mind, very much like older cousins, which corresponds directly to Elrond's assumed role as the elder uncle of the clan.

In this sense, there is a strong kinship between Aragorn as the congenital heir to the position of Elrond's nephew (and Elladan and Elrohir's cousin), and Arwen as Elrond's daughter. It's not a kinship of the sort to merit being called incest, but Elrond is definitely letting his daughter marry "in the clan," in a way that is much stronger than if--for example--he let her marry Gildor Inglorion (if you're willing to call him a descendant of Finarfin) or some fictional descendant of Galadhil, Celeborn's brother, or some even more fictional descendant of Celebrimbor. Again... it's not incestual, but it's definitely endogamic.

Excellent post, Form. I'd add to your rep but it seems I must first spread the wealth around.

Consanguinity aside, it must be remembered that Elrond would not consent to marriage between Aragorn and Arwen until the Dunedain retrieved the rightful kingship of Isildur's line. Aragorn wasn't ever going to get the key to Arwen's chastity belt until he was crowned. This is Tolkien at his medieval best, in that a kingship was absolutely necessary to seal a deal between the two Houses (one whose rank and lineage was even greater than the other), and this is an important element of medieval thinking which persisted all the way up to Queen Victoria's progeny (and the congenital defects suffered by the ruling cousins scattered throughout Europe).

The bloodline was indeed important, but nevertheless Aragorn needed to be worthy in a real, political sense, and not just some arbitrary joining of kissing cousins.

Sorry for the wrong data in my last post. I always thought that Elenwe was Noldor. Anyway, I did the math for Aragorn's Maianess. He recieved 1/2exponent67 Maia from the straightest line - ie paternal except for tar-eneldur's sister. That is to say, 1/1475392589676412928! Really, it's at least twice that, since Aragorn's mo was also a descendant, and there have been many other times down the line when kin married kin...

That's why I said, it's just not possible to answer that question, because there's just too much information missing (and even if you had all the details it would be nightmarishly complicated). The workarounds you can do give you completely different answers, and really neither is valid.

EDIT: That last sentence sounded rather harsh, so let me clarify– I don't mean "you" as in Galadriel55, I mean as in anyone.

Nah, I suspect we all scared the poor feller away.

[QUOTE=Nerwen;642611]That's why I said, it's just not possible to answer that question, because there's just too much information missing (and even if you had all the details it would be nightmarishly complicated).QUOTE]

That is true, and that's why I said that (1/2to the exponent 67) is the Maiar blood Aragorn recieved from the most direct line - that is to say, the father's father's etc line, including TarMeneldur's sister, who is the only female in the line.

Um yes they were.....very distantly but still were related no matter which way you wanna look at it. :)

That seems quite possible, seeing as the issue has been settled so heavily against him (or her, I shan't be sexist). :)

Aragorn II Elessar is the first cousin second-two times removed of Arwen Undómiel. The “second-two times removed” means 62 generations have passed since Vardamir Nólimon son of Elros, Arwen’s first cousin and Aragorn’s ancestor.

Canon law is used in genealogy to count the maximum number of steps from the nearest common ancestor. In this case, Arwen is 2 direct steps away from the nearest common ancestor, Eärendil and Elwing. But Aragorn is 64 steps away: so the Canon relationship is 64.

The genealogical degree in civil law represents the total number of steps through the blood line that separate two individuals. In this case, there are 2 steps from Arwen to her grandparents, but there are 64 steps from Aragorn to Eärendil and Elwing, so the relationship is 64 + 2 = LXVI. (Civil relationship is reported with Roman numerals. You would think Canon relationship would use Roman numerals...)

Elendil, first High King of the Dúnedain (Númenóreans) in Middle-earth, was the son of Amandil, 18th and last Lord of Andúnië of Númenor. The first Lord of Andúnië was Valandil son of Silmariën, daughter and eldest child of Tar-Elendil, fourth king of Númenor, who was ninety-two when his great-grandfather Elros Tar-Minyatur died. (I.e.: he knew Elros pretty well.) Silmariën was passed over as sovereign because it had not been the habit of the Third House of the Edain to select women as rulers, and although Elros was related to all three Houses of the Edain, he was the titular head of the Third House because Eärendil was the son of Tuor, and Tuor inherited that title upon the suicide of his first cousin, Turin son of Húrin.

Two generations after Silmariën was passed over as sovereign, almost certainly before she died (probably around 934 in the Second Age), her nephew, Tar-Aldarion, changed the law of succession and appointed as his heir his daughter and only child, Telperiën, making her the first Ruling Queen of Númenor.

So while the House of Elros was the Ruling House of Númenor, the House of Valandil of Andúnië was the senior house of Númenor, even before the House of Elros. That’s what made the Lords of Andúnië the leading noble house of Númenor. Late in the Second Age, that must have made it legally difficult for Ar-Gimilzôr and Ar-Pharazôn to justify their repression of the Faithful Númenóreans because the Lords of Andúnië were among their leaders. It also meant that in Middle-earth, Elendil could rightfully claim to be High King of all surviving Númenóreans, first because of the seniority of his house; second because the House of Elros led the Dúnedain to disaster, defeat, and destruction; and finally because there were likely only very junior branches (if any) of the House of Elros that survived in Middle-earth. (It’s possible that Berúthiel was a descendent of one of these cadet branches, and that Tarannon Falastur hoped his marriage to her would cement his claims on the Númenóreans in Umbar and further south along the coasts, regions that had previously been more heavily settled by the Númenóreans in the days of their power; that didn’t work out too well and was followed by a long war.)

As for how much Maia was in Arwen, here’s the correct calculation:
http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/ArwenLineage.jpg
It is not possible to calculate this for Aragorn, because every time someone married even a distant relative, you have to add the fractions of whatever heritage you have. (As a simple example, if your father is half English and half German, and your mother is half English and half Italian, you are half English (one-quarter plus one-quarter is one-half).) There were 22 generations between Elros Tar-Minyatur (generation 1) and Elendil the Tall (generation 24), and it’s likely many if not most of Elendil’s ancestors were related to one another; and Aragorn II was the 41st generation descended from Elendil. (Remember canon 64 in the genealogy? 24 + 41 – 1 = 64. The “–1” is so we don’t count Elendil twice.) Almost all the Northern Dúnedain were related to one another; reasonably speaking, all the surviving Northern Dúnedain at the end of the Third Age were no doubt closely related, since they didn’t intermarry with any other group.

If you haven’t seen it elsewhere, you can find Aragorn’s genealogy in this essay I wrote several years ago.

By the way, whether or not they were technically first cousins, Canon 64 is a pretty distant relationship. In all likelihood, there are a great many people reading and posting on this forum who are Canon 64 relatives (or much closer!) and will never know it.

Alcuin:

1. Props for doing all that tedious research. (And your avatar. But that's off-topic and there's an entirely separate thread for that sort of a thing.)

2. I think the point has been well settled in opposition of poor Beleg, who seems to have been frightened away by our heavy-handedness.

All in favor of returning to happier times? (Mirth, here I come!)

They are
 

Aragorn is a distant desendant of Elros, the first King of Numenor, Elronds brother. Arwen is Elronds daughter so they are related.

Yes, in much the same way I am related to Moses. Needless to say, I don't think Aragorn and Arwen needed to worry about genetic defects due to a consanguinary marriage. ;)

Moses? Of the tribe of Levi? Or did you mean Noah?

Actually, I meant any character over 60 generations removed from the present. One would be as good as the next, genetically speaking.

I'm a third cousin of Isaac Newton about 13 times removed. ;)


Heh, poor thing. Although sometimes that's just how we learn. However, I hope they were not frightened away completely.

I always assumed that Arwen and Aragorn were related because 1. both are descended from Luthien and 2. Aragorn is a descendant of Elros Tar-Minyatur who is Arwen's uncle, and both come from Earendil.

Aragorn is also related to Celeborn since, because he is a descendant of Luthien, he is also a child of Elu Thingol who (unless I am mistaken) is an uncle of Celeborn.

SO Aragorn is also related to his in-laws. And probably Denethor and Boromir and Faramir too. But then, by the Third Age, practically everyone is related to everyone else anyway. You should check out the hobbit family trees, they are just about as inbred as any family of the Eldar/Edain. (First and second cousin once removed either way.)

If we go back 6000 years I'd put money on everyone in the Downs being 'kin from afar'.

Aragorn is actually related to Celeborn in 2 ways (...I think):

1. Celeborn's father, Galadhon, is the son of Thingol's brother Elwe. That makes Celeborn Thingol's ...great nephew?...

2. Celeborn's brother Galathil is the father of Nimloth who is Elwing's mother. I'm not even gonna try to go through all the greats and grands and whatnot of naming the relationship. It is. That's all.

Elwe is Thingol's original name. My namesake Elmo, Elwe's brother, is Celeborn's grandad I think.

My bad. I meant to write Elmo.:o

No probs, I just feel the great Elmo needs more recognition for the deeds he did before he joined the Muppet business.

Although I must say that a "Tickle-Me-Elwe" doll would be quite funny.

I definitely see a market for a toy that comes out with phrases likewhen you tickle it! :D

I think we've hit a goldmine here, I'll knock up an email to the Tolkien estate in the morning.

Coming soon from Melkor-Bradley. ;)

Anyway, how could anyone argue that Aragorn and Arwen were not related, when they recognized the fact themselves?

ROTK Appendix A

Even though thousands of years lay separated the two, you'd think Aragorn still would have found the situation pretty uncomfortable :eek:

If it comes in a LEGO version then it's sold!

I don't know that Aragorn and Arwen would be uncomfortable with being distantly related. I suppose it would depend on whether women in the line that Aragorn's paternal ancestors married were also closely related. The British royal family has those kinds of links many times over, and though I know they're not exactly an amazing endorsement of the point I'm pursuing, it's not really a big problem to marry someone with very distant familial links. Some of the biggest marriage taboos are around marrying brothers/sisters of a dead husband/wife.

This sort of reminds me of the time when, due to a mistype, someone who was using their phone to send a message said her was sending it "from the Tuor bus" (captial mine). To which I replied "Really, I didn't know he could drive. Staying on till Gondolin?"