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Why did Legolas set sail for the Grey Havens only after Aragorn's death?
Please do forgive me if the question sounds infantile or has already been discussed.
According to the Appendix B of Lotr, Legolas set sail, along with Gimli, in the year 1541 after King Elessar's death. But why did he wait for such a long while? Most of the elves had already set sail by then, so why didn't he? Legolas had started feeling the call of the sea since before the destruction of the One Ring. This wait seems a little meaningless. Then why choose such a path? Am I missing out something obvious? |
That isn't an "infantile" question at all.
Firstly, most of the remaining Noldor in Middle-earth (Gildor, et al) had already gone, but it's clear many of the Silvan Elves in Mirkwood were still there, and apparently fairly content. As for the timing of Legolas's departure, it seems to be connected to the death of King Elessar, who, except Gimli, was the last remaining member of the Fellowship in ME. Legolas seems to have simply felt that was the right time, and there was no further reason to linger in mortal lands. |
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However, your theory about the Silvan elves still residing in ME holds a lot of merit. Thank you for not deeming my question "infantile", Inziladun. I am a little nervous as this is the first thread that I have started in the Downs. |
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Additionally, Gimli, who was probably Legolas's best friend, was over 262 years old when they set sail (according to ROTK Appendix C), and that was pretty old for a Dwarf. Couple Gimli's old age with the death of Elessar, and what more did ME have for Legolas? Quote:
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Hello, SlverGlass.
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The passing of time would mean nothing to him but, as Inziladun has said, the passing of his friends of The Fellowship would mean much to him. If Legolas wanted Gimli to accompany him into The West, he could not risk waiting any longer. . |
Probably it was more Gimlis timing that that of Legols. I think that Legolas would have stayed in Middle-Earth as long as Gimli lived. That Gimli feeling old age aproache him, having the wish to see Galadriel again and seeing his freind Elessar dead, thought somthing like now or never. Thus it could have been his timing and not that of Legolas.
Respectfuly Findegil |
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It does make sense that the 'Eldar' of the fellowship would be the last to 'depart'. And I totally agree with you, Selmo. Those years would have been no more than a blink of an eye for an elf. |
Legolas of Ithilien?
Interesting question Silverglass,
Agreeing with the points above. Also this implies maybe that there was no 'Mrs Legolas' does it not? As I remember Legolas decided to set up a Silvan Elf settlement in Ithilien after the War as well as bringing trees etc to cheer up Minas Tirith. I don't think I've heard any more on the subject, anyone spotted anything in HoME etc? Would be an interesting place Ithilien in the early 4th Age, run by Faramir and Eowyn, with presumably Legolas as leader of a wood-elf settlement, with all subordinate to Aragorn and Arwen. Quite rare to have such a multi-ethnic realm, apart from Bree and Dale perhaps. There might be ongoing efforts to heal the orcish defilement of the land and perhaps hunts into the mountains and towards Minas Morgul to clear out the remaining orcs etc. Minas Morgul itself required many years before it could be 'cleansed' according to Aragorn, but maybe the rebuilding of Osgiliath might be in progress? |
Aragorn was also the last link to the "old world". Gandalf put him in charge of preserving as much as he could, but with his passing many ther things would pass too, IMO.
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Perhaps it was merely a matter of Tolkien tying up loose ends by offering a bit of finality for each member of the Fellowship. That way, fan-fic writers couldn't go on and on about Legolas well into the 4th and even 5th Ages. :rolleyes:
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What is it with Legolas obsessions anyways? Why Legolas? I like him too, but he's not the only character! |
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in defence of Tolk's Leggy
I think Legolas must have had a fairly healthy pre-Bloom fanbase, Galadriel55. He was certainly my favourite character at my first reading as a rather serious, self-important and chivalric little boy...
The reasons why, for reasons that rationally must be coincidental but certainly don't feel that way, were all extirpated from or altered in the films. Obviously I always thought Elves were cool but for me this controversial passage picked out Legolas in particular: Quote:
Legolas's next fine moment was his contribution to the Lament of the Winds. I've always loved that, though I understand why few songs made it cinematically. Still, sad. And now, to at last reach the ostensible topic of this thread, how about the wonderful verse of Galadriel's warning? "Legolas Greenleaf long under tree In joy thou hast lived. Beware of the Sea! If thou hearest the cry of the gull on the shore, Thy heart shall then rest in the forest no more." I seem to recall Legolas takes this as a warning that he is likely to be killed. Remember that on first reading you have next to no idea about the rules of the game re: Elves and the Sea, just indistinct feelings of elegy, often at an age before you know about anything else elegiac. I wouldn't be surprised if it was here (or maybe in some war at Troy retelling, but close enough) that I got the impression it was in some sense good to die, noble to be resigned to fate and defeat. I can see in the film this would have been complex: a prophecy about a peripheral character that doesn't even come true in any obvious clunking way (as no true prophecy should). But complex is beautiful, and I really resent that there was no reference to Legolas and the gulls in the film at all, except a nod in that admittedly lovely glimpse of Elves going seaward in FOTR: EE. I think Tolkien's last footnotes about Legolas are a way of reconciling this sense of elegy (about which there is SO much good, short Ang-Sax poetry) with Gimli's more upbeat spirit, of wagers, promises to visit Aglarond, grim irony. Of course there are times when the buskin is on the other foot: Gimli has his sentimental side too, and Legolas raises the spirits (not the Spirits) in the Paths of the Dead. Another lovely, structurally purposeless aside is Legolas's recognition of Imrahil's elven heritage; Imrahil himself being a sort of incidental flourish of a character. Finally, when Saruman warns "it will be a grey ship, and full of ghosts", I think of Legolas, going off at last to fulfil that prophecy, as much as or more than I do of the Ringbearers. |
Interesting and insightful post, Anguirel. I have known several people who liked Legolas best in the book long before the movies came out, and those were boys, too, so it's really not a Bloom-fan thing. I'm more of a hobbit liking person, so I the elves never quite caught my fancy, but I can understand your sentiments. I, too, love that part when Legolas shoots the Nazgul's steed. I've always liked this painting of that part. (I still don't know how to put a picture into the text.)
SlverGlass, I always assumed Legolas waited to leave until Aragorn died because of his ties to him on account of their fellowship. I think that although Tolkien did not describe in very great depth the comradeship between Aragorn and Legolas and Gimli, it was still there to a great extent. They would not leave him when he wanted to go through the Paths of the Dead, and they ran long leagues with him to save Merry and Pippin, and they fought battles together. All these trials and hardships and adventures are bound to bring a trio together, and while they might not become friends like Legolas and Gimli were able to be friends, on account of Aragorn being their leader, they still loved him. So, I feel that it was the loyalty to Aragorn that kept him in ME that long. Good question and welcome to the Downs. -- Foley |
I was another pre-film Legolas fan. It was the elves that captured my imagination though I liked other characters -it wasn't quite like the Leggy bopper frenzy. I must admit that I have long puzzled about Legolas' response to Galadriel's prophecy and Ang's explanation never occured. I just thought it was because the Silvan and Sindarin elves hadn't the same connection to Aman as the Noldor who had lived there and were Exiles returning home.
But while I agree that he would have waited the (to him) relatively short time for the sake of fellowship, isn't also possible that Gimli could only hope to be admitted to the undying lands when he is close to death, no matter what grace attached to him. Sam and Bilbo go there to die rather than to live. Frodo presumably lived long enough to be reunited with Sam but he is a little different - I think he effectively died to Middle Earth as a result of the attack on Weathertop - Gandalf notices the change and notes to himself that he might become like a vessel of light. It is not dissimilar to the description of Glorfindel, that preceded it living on "both sides" similtaneously. |
Folwren, I'd forgotten that picture existed but it was definitely at the back of my mind. Probably the single finest argument for a dark Legolas, and the bow is pretty like kickass as well isn't it...reminds me, in a respectful manner of course, of that vaguely unintentionally homoerotic passage somewhere in the Prof's notes where he compares Legolas to "a young tree"...
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I've always wondered, since Legolas did set sail after Aragorn's death, whether he should have offered Arwen a berth.
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As I said before, I have nothing against the book Legolas. In fact, he is one of my (many) favourite characters. He is likable, and sort of half-serious and Elvish at the same time.
My comment reffered to those who are nuts about Bloom-Legolas, who appear not to notice anyone else. Quote:
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You make some very good and well thought out comments, Anguirel. As I mentioned before, the movies, though great they may be, didn't tug my heartstrings merely due to the alternation of the personality of the character. Among the elves, Legolas and Lord Elrond had always been a little closer to my heart. However, the movie took away the finer points that had made them so dear to me in the first place. Their characters became something different in the movies. Not necessarily bad, not they were certainly not the Legolas and Elrond whom I had grown to admire and even, respect. Quote:
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The picture was beautiful. This was the first time that I came across it. Thanks Folwren. I must say that the Professor's comparison is dead on the mark, Anguirel. Not surprising, of course, as Legolas is his creation. Even as one of the Eldar, Legolas, according to me, came forward as an extremely flexible minded elf, who didn't backtrack in face of some new discovery and always remain open for knowledge. Thus, he 'grows', in mind and character, throughout the book and helps us to grow with him. Quote:
Your phrase, 'Half-serious and Elvish at the same time', describes Legolas perfectly, Galadriel. For me, Legolas is and will remain the most 'human elf'. |
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Now that you mention it... There is, indeed, an innocence in Legolas, as seen in hobbits. Not to forget, his unusally simple way of perceiving things. |
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Since his father and grandfather are both stated in the HOME to be Sindarin, he is at least half-Sindarin. As to the other half, the HOME also states that only a handful of Sindar went with Oropher and Thranduil and they soon merged with the Silvan elves. This would account for the possibility that Legolas' hair was indeed dark for all elves, except the Vanyar and Teleri, were dark-haired. |
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So either way, Legolas is at least part Eldar. :) |
According to The Lord of the Rings (author-published of course) the Eldar are the Elves of Aman plus the Sindar only (and returning Noldor of course). The East-elves of Mirkwood and Lorien were not considered Eldar, nor their languages Eldarin (Appendix F).
However Legolas had Sindarin blood in any case. I know The Silmarillion says (a bit) differently, but I'm not sure Tolkien was paying full attention to what he had already published when he wrote that which Christopher Tolkien chose to put into the 1977 Silmarillion. |
But even using the LotR's definition of Eldar, and not the Silm version, which would need to be clarified as to which version is used as some of use one and others the other, Legolas also proclaims himself a Silvan elf, not an Eldar. When entering Hollin, he says "the Elves of this land were of a race strange to us of the silvan folk." No matter which book is used, somewhere there is evidence that Legolas was not one of the Eldar. In Letters, Tolkien states that he is one of the Woodelves. I fail to see the evidence that Legolas is an Eldar, to contradict the clearly stated, by Legolas himself, idea the Legolas is one of the Silvan elves.
And part Eldar does not count as Eldar. For example, Finrod is part Vanyar and Teleri, so can we proclaim him to be Vanyar or Teleri in spite of it being stated he is one of the Noldor? |
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Since silvan is not capitalised there, I could see that as Legolas speaking not as a Silvan Elf, but rather a silvan (wood-dwelling) elf to whom the culture of the Noldor was alien. |
Culturally I would say Legolas is one of the Tawarwaith or Wood-elves, but according to one description, the remigrant Sindar might have brought at least some measure of West-elven culture with them too. A late text (Unfinished Tales) generally notes that these Silvan Teleri had become a small and scattered people, hardly to be distinguished from Avari, but that under Sindarin leadership they 'became again ordered folk and increased in wisdom,' and some learned writing from the Sindar.
This at least seems (to me anyway) to imply that they brought some Beleriandic culture into play, noting the history of Galadriel and Celeborn relates that the Silvan Elves of Lorien became subject to 'Sindarizing' under the impact of Beleriandic culture. Legolas, as the son of a Sinda, was the son of an Elda... by blood he might be fully Sindarin, or not. But what does blood mean regarding this question? However another late text in Unfinished Tales notes Oropher and folk: 'wished indeed to become Silvan folk and to return, as they said, to the simple life natural to the Elves before the invitation of the Valar had disturbed it.' As I said above, however Legolas had Sindarin blood (at least in part) in any case, but admittedly I'm not really sure what that alone might mean as far as being accounted an Elda or not -- in The Lord of the Rings the Eldar are the West-elves while the Silvans of Lorien and Mirkwood are the East-elves -- and in my opinion Legolas did not himself live in Beleriand at least, about as West as one could go without sailing to Aman. It's possible (though I've no text to support it) that the 'definition' of Eldar Tolkien later wrote about (taken up into The Silmarillion by CJRT) was yet another internal distinction: meaning Eldar first referred to all Elves (Peoples of the Stars), then to the West-elves, then later to the Marchers (Eldor), whether or not they had reached Beleriand. I'm not sure Tolkien saw the latter idea as an internal addition to the use or application of Eldar (rather than forgetting what he had actually published already), but the term seems to have changed a bit internally in any case. Erm, what was the question again! :D |
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Eldar is a hard word to define in Tolkien works. In various places, it seems to mean the elves that sailed across the sea, the elves that intended to sail regardless of whether they made it, and just a plain synonym for elf. Rereading LotR this afternoon, I was struck by a line that talked about the lifespan of the Eldar. It seemed an odd way to phrase it to me...after all, if they Eldar are only those elves that intended to sail, does that mean the Nandor and Avari have a different life span? :p Calaquendi and Moriquendi are much simpler...
In my opinion, blood doesn't matter, as much as what the person declares himself to be - after all, we consider the members of the Houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin to be Noldor, in spite of the fact that we know that Finarfin's children were only a quarter Noldor, and Fingolfin's couldn't have been more then three-quarters. Going back to the question of Legolas, I think it is impossible to give a definite answer on whether he was one, because we simply don't know. His family tree is very sketchy, and so is the definition if Eldar. |
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*Some Elves don't accept the summons of Mandos and do not come to his Halls, but I'm really hazy on that... |
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'... and hence it [Sindarin] was the tongue of all those Elves and Elf-lords that appear in this history. For these were all of Eldarin race, even where the folk that they ruled were of lesser kindreds.' One could push Tolkien concerning the word 'all' here, but shirly Thranduil was an Elf lord, and no Elf appears more 'in this history' than the son of this ruler, Legolas Greenleaf. Unless I'm reading this wrongly... Quote:
Is the son of a Light Elf himself a Dark Elf because he had not lived in Aman nor seen the light of the Trees? Or is there something outside of the 'definition' that can or might be considered? |
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The "People" of Thingol were, generally, the people he ruled - ie: The Sindar. Luthien was a special case, arguably a UNIQUE case. If she happened to be a (maybe the Single) exception to the statement, a Philologist like Tolkien would not have felt the need to convert his statement into a legally and logically rigorous, iron-clad contractual declaration. His point that Thingol was seen as different from his people (due to having seen the Trees) remains true - whether Luthien was an exception or not. In Luthien's case, being the daughter of a Maia and a Caliquendi could have included her in the Elves-of-Light designation. But, even if not, it doesn't reduce who she was. As far as Descendents are concerned, I'm not so sure that descendents of Caliquendi aren't also considered Caliquendi - is it said anywhere that (for ex) Erenion Gil-galad was not a Caliquendi (being son of Fingon)?? |
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I don't understand one thing. How does Legolas' heritage affect his departal from ME? He doesn't need to be one of the Eldar to leave, or to hear the call of the Sea (speaking of that one, Men also hear it, so why can's moriquendi?).
His background wasn't finished (according to the Enc. of Arda, there are two versions - one that says Oropher is a Sinda who came from across the River, and another that he was a Silvan Elf), so there's no point in trying to prove any story. :) |
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The Elves of Amman and Singolo's people had the same language in the begining but when the Noldor returned tto ME, Singolo had become Thingol. The languages had changed so much that communication between the two groups was very difficult. The Noldor had to learn Sindarin. Just thing of the misunderstanding that can occur between the speakers of British English and American English. . |
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Tolkien himself might niggle with calling Legolas Sindarin, but I think even he must admit that what he published naturally enough leads one down this path. The Oropher example is a good one: here I think the natural implication of published text is that Thranduil (not Oropher) established his kingdom in the Second Age before the building of Barad-dur -- or at least early enough in the Second Age. Of course people can (and will) correct that based on Tolkien's private (and relatively brief) notes on the movements of some Elf named Oropher, who doesn't even get mentioned in Appendix B, but in my opinion such a 'correction' comes with a little asterisk at least, or should. Quote:
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Again, did JRRT recall the 'implication' in Appendix B when he tested the Orophorian waters here? and if he did not, once having done so (in theory) would he necessarily try to add Oropher? Perhaps... he certainly could characterize Appendix B as extremely contracted history and wedge in Oropher... but one never knows. But I digress :) |
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