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-   -   [Treebeard/Tom Bombadil] Fangorn/Treebeard= Oldest? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=5985)

Lutfiska 03-23-2003 12:32 PM

[Treebeard/Tom Bombadil] Fangorn/Treebeard= Oldest?
 
Hello everybody!

Im just wondering if Fangorn is the oldest living being in ME? And if so isnt the case, then who is?

thx for any replys

[ June 24, 2003: Message edited by: The Barrow-Wight ]

HCIsland 03-23-2003 12:39 PM

He's an Ent.

I may be wrong, but I always figured the Ents were awoken shortly after the Elves. Certainly not before. I believe Cirdan of Grey Havens may still be an elf from this period, so may be even older than Treebeard.

Who is the oldest? I think that's up for debate, but I would put my money on Tom Bombadil. Then again, that would all depend on exactly what you thought Tom was as well.

H.C.

[ March 23, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

Beren87 03-23-2003 12:43 PM

Quote:

I may be wrong, but I always figured the Ents were awoken shortly after the Elves
I always assumed they awoke at the same time as the Dwarves, as they are Yavanna's protector's of the trees. They were created diretly because of Aule making the Dwarves, so it would make sense that they would awake at the same moment.

dragoneyes 03-23-2003 12:47 PM

Is not Tom Bombadil 'the oldest and the fatherless' making him the oldest, whatever you think he is.

Beren87 03-23-2003 12:54 PM

But Tom's not really a creature of ME, he's a Maiar (or so we think). And I can see this topic is going to be shut down becuase there are a thousand other topics about who the older person in ME is.

Lutfiska 03-23-2003 12:54 PM

But I think Fangorn says something like: "I am the oldest" (my book is stolen :s so i cant check it right now)... Do you know anything about this?

Yavanna 03-23-2003 01:01 PM

I would say Fangorn was the oldest living thing, because Manw said that when the Children awoke, so would the Ents. Although so far in the Silmarillion, it hasn't mentioned anything about Tom Bombadil.

Lindril Arvilya 03-23-2003 01:02 PM

I don't have a book around either, but perhaps he meant of creatures he'd met. I'm just guessing, and probably wrong, though.

tangerine 03-23-2003 01:13 PM

I would be inclined to say that they are the oldest living beings, since they were made just after the dwarves were fashioned, which is before the Elves came. Yarvanna made them to protect the trees, and Treebeard gives reference in LOTR as to being the oldest of his race. The only one older might be Tom Bombadil, and I'm not sure if he counts.

HCIsland 03-23-2003 01:20 PM

The way a read it is that the dwarves were made, but then put to sleep and only awoken after the elves, who've been asleep much longer than that. I think it's debatable as to which is older (and I'm sure it's been debated to death anyway [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] )

H.c.

steve 03-23-2003 09:31 PM

correct me if i am wrong, but wernt ents origionally trees that were awoken? because they turn back into trees after a wile or so the oldest ents other then treebeard did. so technichly wouldnt that make him be the oldest because there were trees when the elves were awoken, were there not?

Beren87 03-23-2003 09:33 PM

It's confusing, as there seem to be two theories. That that the first ents "awoke" much as the elves did, being created by Mawn or Eru. And then there is the explanation that they were awakened by the elves, which seems to fit what Treebeard says, but not what is implied in the Silm.

Chancellen the True 03-23-2003 09:44 PM

The dwarves were alive before they were put asleep. "and the Dwarves shrank from the hammer and were afraid, and they bowed down their heads and begged for mercy." page 41, The Silmarillion. If you are going to allow Tom Bombadil, then he would have to be the oldest. He says that he was there before the trees and the first raindrop. That last part is a pretty serious statement. I take it to mean that he was there before Manwe and Ulmo got together to invent rain. That's old. He also says that he was there before the dark one came from the outside (paraphrase). This statement does not make clear weather he means before Melkor came the first time or after his three age imprisiment, but that is a discussion for another thread. Thanks.

Iarwain 03-23-2003 09:46 PM

Iarwain Ben-Adar, Eldest and Fatherless, he was awake before the elves, before the dwarves, he witnessed everything.

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie 03-23-2003 11:30 PM

Well Tom Bombadil is the oldest of course.
Quote:

"Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made the paths before the Big People, and saw the Little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless-before the Dark Lord cam from Outside."

Scott 03-23-2003 11:38 PM

I always thought that the evolution of the ents was intended to be a combination of both the Silmarillion and what Treebeard tells Merry and Pippin.
>The elves awake
>The ents awake shortly after the elves do
>The elves converse with the ents and teach them to speak
>The whole "Entwives" episode occurs

I'll talk about Tommy when I have a few books cracked open to back up my BS [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Iarephelion 03-24-2003 01:01 AM

The esteemed Mr. Bombadil aside, the Silmarillion states that Ents would come at the awakening of the Elves. Yavanna had conceived of them in the music of the Ainur and they are as old as any of the children of Eru but.
Quote:

Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared.
These words were related by Manwe to Yavanna as they had been spoken by Eru Himself. I suppose it could be argued that the spirits summoned by the thought of Yavanna were older than the Elves, but this is getting pretty picky

Legolas 03-24-2003 01:21 AM

Quote:

Im just wondering if Fangorn is the oldest living being in ME? And if so isnt the case, then who is?
Tom Bombadil, apparently.

Not Treebeard, definitely.

When asked about the matter, Tolkien noted that while Treebeard does have some wisdom, he is not all-knowing. He is not the author, but just a character in the author's story.

From Letter No. 153:

Quote:

Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand. He does not know what 'wizards' are, or whence they came.
This thread is a duplicate.

Estelyn Telcontar 03-24-2003 01:28 PM

Thanks for the link, Legolas - closing this thread. Please continue on the other one.


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