Sauron <3
 

Hello.

Firstly, I must say, this is my first topic, so a welcome would be appreciated. :)

I have been a huge fan of Lord of the Rings for a number of years, although I have not read the books, but I did get half - way into The Hobbit twice, then, for a reason I don't know why, but I stopped.

Secondly, I must point out, before I ask my question, that Sauron, is my absolute favourite character ever to be created. Call my sadistic if you will, but I watched Lord of the Rings the Return of the King today, (for about the 100th time, no joke, I watch one of the movies each night), and when I saw his tower crumble, I felt depressed, and still do to this moment.

Lately, I have been researching a lot about Sauron, Melkor, the Void and all the other related stuff, and it depresses me even more that I know that Sauron can NEVER take physical form again.

Is this really true?

Couldn't Eru resurrect him, or give him some power?

I heard that The Blue Wizards were some sort of necromancers and that someone said that they could bring Sauron back. True?

What about the last battle? Dagor Dagorath. I read that Melkor, will break open the Doors of Night and him and Sauron shall escape the Void, destroy the moon and the sun, and that all evil things will fight with the free people's and that Sauron will be in it as well.

Does anyone know if Sauron will dies during the battle? Does he even have a physical form then?

Would he have his power back or will be be extremely weak?

Would they destroy him forever? So he has no spirit form or physical form, so he is basically dead? Please not let this be true, he deserved to rule ME in my opinion.

I really hope that he can come back, impossible? Probably. :'(

Sorry if this is in the wrong section of the forum.

Thanks in advance!

Welcome Dark Lord, and that doescseem a little odd.

A lot of seemingly simple questions whichneverthe less go very deep in to the legendarium. Not one of my specialities and I suspect it won't have a definitive answer more a selection of evidence. But it will be interesting to see what this provokes.

There is a novices and newcomer section but since this topic demands text based responses rather than just theories then I think it is in the right place.

Welcome aboard, Dark Lord!

Yes. Sauron lost so much of his power by losing the Ring that he does not have enough to make another body.

He probably could, but why would he?

I doubt that they have the power and authority over that sort of thing.

Well, in the end Morgoth is defeated, but I'm not sure what it says regarding Sauron's fate. Really, very little is known of how the world will function after the Dagorath.

Well, he must have built up his power for the battle, but after... who knows?

Understandable! Sauron is one of my favourite characters invented by Professor Tolkien (which may be obvious from my user name and avatar) but personally I find him fascinating rather than liking anything about him as such, or feeling sorry for him. However, I think his characterisation in The Silmarillion etc is incredibly interesting. Apologies therefore for the long post - I could talk about Sauron all day.

Given that he was in the habit of claiming that Eru didn't exist and that Morgoth (earlier) or he himself (later) was the real God despite having personal experience of Eru's existence, and that this was considered to be "an abomination" (Letters p.243) I somehow doubt that Eru would be very sympathetic.

I think this might be a case of misinformation. Professor Tolkien once speculated that the Blue Wizards could have been responsible for the establishment of harmful cults in the East (but also that they might have actually helped a good deal in promoting resistance to Sauron among the Easterlings). They are not, as far as I'm aware, ever associated with Necromancy. Regardless, "Necromancy" in Middle-earth is largely about manipulating spirits (particularly of dead Elves who refuse the call to the Halls of Waiting) rather than the modern interpretation of "bringing people back to life", which is pretty much impossible - Elves could be reincarnated in Aman and Ainur could rebuild their own bodies through effort of will but that's about it, and it was too late for Sauron to do that (see below).

This remark from the Professor in Morgoth's Ring seems relevant:
"Melkor was not Sauron. We speak of him being 'weakened, shrunken, reduced'; but this is in comparison with the great Valar. He had been a being of immense potency and life. ... The dark spirit of Melkor's 'remainder' might be expected, therefore, eventually and after long ages to increase again, even (as some held) to draw back into itself some of its formerly dissipated power. It would do this (even if Sauron could not) because of its relative greatness." (p. 404)

Evidently it was not within the capacity of Sauron, a comparatively lesser being, to restore his lost power.

Given that Sauron was, in the Professor's words, "as near an approach to the wholly evil will as is possible" (Letters p.243) it would suggest to me that in the final analysis he would be either destroyed or left totally impotent forever. As far as deserving to rule Middle-earth, well... at least as far as the story itself goes, Manwë was High King of Arda by divine right so that kind of precludes any other ruler from being morally acceptable on such a scale (as far as the internal logic of the story goes).
As interesting as I think Sauron is, he's still a murderer, liar, warmonger and tyrant superseded only by Morgoth himself!
At the end of the First Age there might have been some hope for his recovery, but by the end of the Third I think it's fair to say that the story considers him to be beyond redemption.

Well, thanks guys.

I am more deeply saddened now that he can never return... :(

Hmmm, if only PJ made an alternative ending where Sauron conquers ME....

If anyone else, would like to give facts/opinions that are true, and cheer me up, don't be afraid to post.

One day, I hope he can return...

I also wonder what would happen to him during Dagor Dagorath and after the battle.....

Beyond the Dagor Dagorath not much can be sayed, but this comes from The Ainulindale:Since we have no restriction here (like 'the survivoirs of the choirs of the Ainur') we can deduce that Sauron was included in this prophecy. But I have some doubts if this will be very hopefull for you, Dark Lord, for Sauron is for sure one of the many addressed by 'Then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright'. It might be that you wouldn't recognise Mairon again after the katalytic events around the Dagor Dagorath.

Respectfully
Findegil

Sorry, but I do not really understand. I have only just gotten into this 'thing'. I have heard of the music and Eru, but not much else, can you explain in an easier way please?

Well you are free to write your own fanfic. Even if Tolkien were still around I doubt he would have gone that way, he abandoned a LOTR sequel after a few pages partly because it undermined the victory over Sauron in LOTR if I remember rightly.

Tolkien was a devout Christian and l think he intended if anything a glimpse of the final victory to a

small triumph before evil conquered. I don't think he would ever have given Sauron victory though hemight have found some route to redemption.

Hi this may be hard since Tolkien wrote masses on Middle Earth but only the Hobbit and the Lord ofvthe Rings were published in his lifetime. Tolkien loved language. He said that words were his music and aswell as learning languages from an early age he made up his own. At one level he created Middle Earth as a world for his invented langiages to live in. He had his own creationmyth and tried to maje sure that his myth was plausible..as if it could have been a real mythology for our own world. While the detail is something that attracts many of us it means it is terribly complex and it means that there isn't a definitive version of a lot of it. Tolkien worked on it pretty much all his life, would have a new idea but maybe not get round to revising the old stuff. And for a long time it didn't matter because Middle Earth was pretty much a private world.

Then he told his children the story that became the Hobbit and bits of his mythology came into it, and more into LOTR, but publishers weren't so keen on the Silmarillion as a prospect and by the timethe LOTR was published and popular Tolkien had about forty years worth of drafts which had to be made coherent with the aspects of the mythology that were in the published works. Ultimately he wasn't able to finish the job and left it to his son. So as well as the version of the mythology published as The Silmarillion a few years after Tolkien died, his son published twelve volumes of drafts with notes History of Middle Earth as well as Unfinished Tales which contains fragments closely connected with the published stories. Sauron features in a lot of it. so basically there is a huge amount of information much of which was revised and developed and can't be claimed to be Tolkien's final word on it. So you may have to do some reading and make up your own mind. There may be essays that eill give a precis but they may not be helpful if you aren't familiar with the context of the books.

Well, to put it very simply - as simply as I am able to :) - in the beginning, the world (called Arda, including both Middle-Earth and the Undying Lands, and presumably more) was created by the Ainur who, on Eru's request, made the "Great Music". This music sort of foreshadowed the way the world would be shaped (partially, Eru still took his liberties, such as the creation of Elves and Men), and Melkor, and some of those who followed him - for example Sauron - tried to introduce some "dissonance" into the Music by bringing in themes of their own, which did not really fit well with the rest. We could assume this included making Orcs and other dangerous beasts, basically bringing some evil things and events into the world. But it is also said that at the end of times, after Dagor Dagorath where Melkor will be defeated once and for all, the Ainur will all sing again, now together with the choirs of the Children of Ilúvatar (Elves and Men), and, as you read in the quote Findegil provided, "then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright". That basically means that there won't be the discord among the Ainur as it had been in the first Music. That means, Melkor or Sauron or others will NOT disturb it.

Now, this can of course mean two things, one can mean some utter annihilation of those "evil elements" in the sense of utter annihilation of Melkor and Sauron and other "bad guys". But what I think Findegil had in mind was the possibility of some sort of transformation of those "bad guys", that is, they won't anymore play their music against the theme, but along with it. And I would actually support that idea. Yes, the evil elements are definitely annihilated, but that does not require annihilation of Sauron himself. And it says: "all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased." So if we understood it the way that this would also apply to Sauron, it would actually be some sort of "revelation moment" for Sauron, when he would finally also understand his own purpose, which he himself had not been aware of before. I think that's quite a nice and hopeful idea.

Hope that helps clarifying it :)

I find this an interesting thought. We know that Morgoth is doomed to die at the hand of Turambar, which presumably means that he is completely annihilated - not imprisoned, not exiled, not simply divested of his incarnate body, but totally destroyed in spirit at the most fundamental level. We know that Sauron was "only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself." (Valaquenta) Given that Sauron was only a propagator, and not the originator, of Evil, does that put himself in a different position to his old Master? The destruction of Morgoth in absolute terms (rather than the previous compromises), which includes remaking all of Arda free of his taint, means the destruction of Evil in totality, and Sauron was only one of the symptoms, if apparently the worst after the cause himself. What about other Úmaiar? Saruman? Orcs? Would they be "healed" of the taint of Melkor along with everything else?
It's one of those questions which I have always found curious regarding the theodicy of Eä and the ultimate consequences for evil deeds. How much responsibility is there in the final balance between one's own will to action and the ever-present 'Morgoth-element' putting an evil tendency into all matter? If anyone has read Professor Tom Shippey's The Road to Middle-earth he discusses this as a Boethian-Manichean tension in Professor Tolkien's work, suggesting mediation between one's own potential evil and Evil as an external force. But we can't know how Eru weighs this matter. Were all Men treated equally after death? After passing beyond the Circles of the World would someone like Aragorn or Elros be given the same treatment as, say, The Lord of the Nazgûl? Given that not even the Valar knew I suppose it can only be left to the imagination. Considering, though, that Professor Tolkien did not support the concept of Absolute Evil, though, I can imagine it following that no one was necessarily irredeemably evil either. But had Sauron already had his chance at the end of the First Age?

Well, after all it's all part of Eru's plan.

I'm kind of wondering what happened to Sauron's power after the destruction of the Ring. Is it simple physics, changes in matter and energy transformation and so forth, or is there more to it than that? If it's the former, Sauron's energy is now in the earth, and if we think of Middle-earth as Morgoth's Ring (in the sense that while Sauron put his power into the Ring, Morgoth spent his on the entire Middle-earth), would he technically be able to draw some of Sauron's original power back to him at Dagor Dagorath? :Merisu:

If you love someone, sometimes it's better to let them go. :p

PJ has deviated from the books enough as it is. The Tolkien Estate would kill him if he did that. :D

Haha, you make me laugh.

Let me put it this way, in complete honesty.

If I was in ME while Sauron was around, I would help him as much as I can, if he was destroyed, I would try to bring him back.

Seriously. I would devote my life to him.

Now, if he was a real God, I would worship him. Judge me if you will, but I love him. Haha.

And as for PJ 'destroying Tolkeins way', an alternative ending isn't really destroying it. He doesn't have to touch the first or the second movie, he could just make something like, instead of Gollum biting Frodo's finger, maybe, make him escape?

Then along come the WR'S, get the ring, and just show like 20 minutes of what happens to ME.

He could even rename the 'main' ending to the 'real' ending and call the second ending the 'fake' ending so people would understand its not really the real one, plus, it should make some other people happy, who are sadistic and like the bad guys to win, like me. :D

Sorry, Dark Lord, that other had to clear up my posting. Looking back at it, I see now that it must have been very cryptic for you.

Legat gave as good an explainantion of its background as might be possible.
I would just add one bit of information to his discription of what went wrong during the music of the Ainur: Melkor, who was later know as Morgoth, did not introduce 'evil' as an idea or concept into the theme given by Eru (the Allfather, allmighty and omnipotent God). Melkor did only add a theme of his own that was unlike and in disharmony with Eru's theme that the other Ainur played around him. Some other Ainur, like Mairon, who later was called Sauron, and the Ainur later called Balrogs and Boldogs, did harmonise their music to that of Melkor instaed of playing the theme of Eru. Evil arose from the resulting disharmony not from Melkors theme directly.
Melkors theme was not evil. It is discribed as simple and boring compared to the one of Eru, but not as evil in itself.
The evil dead that Melkor and the Ainur that follwoed him did, was to stick to Melkors theme and not to follow the correctiv action that Eru introduced (twice) when the disharmony arose.

I do not believe that Melkor was nihilated in the Dagor Dagorath.
One reason is that spirits in Tolkiens univers are driven directly from Eru and are undistructable, even if we speak about the relativly small spirits, compared to Melkor, of Elves or Men. If nihilation of spirits was possible at all, it would be an akt of Eru. But speaking about the Ainur in special this seems to me impossible as well. They are discribed as the ofspring of Erus thoughts. To eliminat one of them would be like changing your own history, so that you never had have this particular thought. This is atleast beyond my limited understanding, so it might be that an omnipotent God is able of the deed.
A second reason is this speech by Eru at the end of the music of the Ainur, when he promissed to show the Ainur what their song had been about in pre-vision of the history of Eä (the univers): What he said too Melkor at the end sounds much more like redemtion then like nihilation, at least for me.

Respectfully
Findegil

I've got quite similar ideas in response to Dark Lord's post. And that reminds me about one ancient philosopher who Tolkien was, no doubt, aware of:

The words of Eru quoted by Findegil could be interpreted in different ways, thus we cannot say if the universal reconciliation is Eru's design but there might be such possibility and in that case Sauron is not excluded - presumably, after the end of Arda and Middle Earth. Before that, as Tolkien himself stated somewhere else, Sauron (and Saruman too) was sentenced to be present in the world until its end as a powerless spirit. May be we can imagine future adherents finding their way around to communicate with these spirits, obtaining some kind of important knowledge... Why not? :cool:

## How did you feel when Utumno & Thangorodrim fell ?

## Sauron - like Melkor - reduces himself to what he becomes. It is his own doing, and his own fault. AFAICS, he is a "mini-Melkor", a "shadow of his [Melkor's] malice". ISTM that Ainur (including the Maiar) have a certain "spiritual" "critical mass": if one goes wrong often enough, or severely enough, one has wasted or ruined so much of the goodness & power native to one in one's origin, that one cannot be restored.

Morgoth wastes his power in this way - until he reaches a point at which he cannot change his bodily form. He is stuck with it. Considering that he was the greatest of the Valar, and that they are able to present in many different ways, this is a terrible loss. But it is no worse than that "all love had departed from him for ever". By choosing pride, envy, hatred, arrogance, desire to be a lord over other wills (no matter how much misery that meant for them), he has diminished & ruined himself. The body he's left with is not even invulnerable - Fingolfin & Thorondor give him permanent wounds. And he alone of the Valar knows fear.

By seeing what becomes of Morgoth, we have clues to what happens to Sauron. Sauron is less in power and majesty & gifts than Morgoth was - he is equally ruined, but there was less in him to be ruined. His native strength in his beginning was not as great, so in that sense he is less spoiled. But as to being overthrown, his overthrow is equally final.

At the end of the First Age, Sauron could still "repent" - & he may have been sincere. He had a lot of very serious stuff of which to repent. But he "fell back into evil, for the bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong". He is not as wholly inexcusable as Morgoth. The implication - to judge from that, & from other remarks of Tolkien - is that Sauron was not beyond redemption. Not yet. Just as Saruman very nearly repented. So Sauron had not yet ruined himself. But - over a long period of time - he did. The process (if there was one) is not clear - but he seems to have "gone bad" for ever at least by the Downfall of Numenor. It is after that event, that he can no longer appear in a fair form, or as Annatar - his bodily form is temporarily destroyed. His ability to take a fair form, is destroyed for ever - the body he makes for himself in Mordor after the Downfall is "black and hideous", and his eye is "terrible". And when he is overthrown by Gil-galad & Elendil, Isildur is able to cut off one of Sauron's fingers; Sauron's hand "was burning hot, and so Gil-galad died". And this was while Sauron had the Ring: even that did not stop his being overthrown; though at a great cost.

After the First Age, Sauron does not appear until abt. 500 S.A. After the Downfall - how long he needed to form a body is not said. He can't have taken longer than 122 years at most. But after the War of the Last Alliance, he seems to be no problem for at least 1,000 years. This suggests that each defeat needs more energy for him to get over the defeat, & that he has less energy to start from.

When the Ring is destroyed, maybe the life & energy & will of Sauron within it is dispersed - so, is not available for him to take a new form, however hideous. The description of the "passing" of Sauron, which is echoed in what happens to Saruman, is important here. The wind that disperses the shadow, "vast but impotent" of Sauron, is anticipated by the "cold wind" on which he returns to Mordor from the Downfall - the fall of Barad-dur is described in much the same terms as the destuction of Numenor.

The faery-tale motif of the giant whose heart is hidden in some inaccessible object separate from his body is probably at work here. The giant is immortal so long as the hero or heroine can't find the object that holds his heart - but no longer.

## Two of the Wizards, Alatar & Pallando, may have fallen into necromancy - UT suggests the possibility, but not state as fact that they did. "Bring Sauron back ?" Not heard that one - I suppose it's possible - maybe.

## That would mean misery for his slaves. His moral character disqualifies him. Manwe Sulimo rules all Arda, including ME - that is far better.

## Sauron is "crippled" [as mentioned above] - he can't come back while the world endures (& just as well !) and (presumably) while the Valar are enthroned. Morgoth, who is far mightier in origin, & scope of power, than Sauron, can't - so Sauron can't. If the mightiest of the Valar is Outside in the Void, and cannot return - the mightiest of his servants, who is a Maia, can't do so. So how come Morgoth can return ? I'll go out on a limb here, and suggest that the Dagor Dagorath can happen only because Eru, to whose wisdom all things are "tributary", so wills. Presumably the other purposes of Eru in Arda will ben completed by then. So Morgoth's malice (& Sauron's) would still be under the control of Eru, and (despite their intentions) be means by which Eru does his will. As the Ainulindale puts it:

""And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined....And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory""

All this applies to Sauron's intentions too.

Sauron is "not of mortal flesh" - unlike the Numenoreans. He's a spirit. He can't die. Which is how he survived the Downfall, when they did not.

FWIW, I've only just joined (3 days ago !), but "Welcome", anyway :)

Hope that helps :)

Worship a merciless genocidal megalomaniac intent on destroying basic freedoms and wiping out whole civilizations? Considering there was a dearth of qualified psychotherapists in 3rd Age Middle-earth, I am not certain of any good outcome of such mindless idolatry.

Are sadists ever truly happy? The terms seem incongruous.

Indeed, backing Sauron didn't work out so well for anyone who chose to follow him. Loyalty to that second-rate Morgoth cost the Númenóreans what was pretty near an idyllic life for Men on Middle-earth.

Peter Jackson seems quite content. ;)

## Metaphysical problem: if the "evil elements" don't exist, they can't be annihilated. Evil is not a thing in itself - it's a lack of a good that is meant to be present. Evil is not a thing in Sauron - it's an absence of a good. Strength, deliberation,wisdom, intelligence, and other qualities required for doing evil, are all good things - Sauron had all of these, as when he deceived Ar-Pharazon.

Tolkien could hardly have been unaware of Boethius (d.524), or of the Old English version of Boethius' "Consolation of Philosophy" - & Boethius is the main author to whom later centuries owed that notion of evil. That evil is unreal fits nicely with the rest of the metaphysical notions in the legendarium.

I totally agree with you on the relevance of the Christian interpretation of evil as a lack of (or shortage in) good. However, even this negative nature of evil makes it non-existent only in comparison to absolute, pure good which is nothing but Eru himself. All other beings have their limitations and thus are imperfect which mean even the most excellent of them suffer some shortage in good in their nature and thus can potentially be corrupted, as the example of Melkor shows.

This is why evil, measured against ordinary beings is something real and only a great and wise soul (such as Faramir) can resist its persistent temptations. This is why Boethius had to seek consolation in philosophy which is capable of disclosing the true correlation between evil and good, which is not that apparent for one who belongs to this world. And this is why evil, despite it is nothing, is able to take so many shapes and to be something significant and active.