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-   -   Jacksonverse Elves during the War against the Balcoth (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=19170)

Victariongreyjoy 01-01-2018 01:18 PM

Jacksonverse Elves during the War against the Balcoth
 
I know Gondor and the Eotheod was the main protaginists of the war, but in the movieverse, do you think Thranduil may perhaps assisted Men by sending a small squad lead by Legolas and Tauriel during the war? Because surely Thranduil did see the threat from the easterlings as very significant to his Woodland realm.

Morthoron 01-01-2018 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victariongreyjoy (Post 710212)
I know Gondor and the Eotheod was the main protaginists of the war, but in the movieverse, do you think Thranduil may perhaps assisted Men by sending a small squad lead by Legolas and Tauriel during the war? Because surely Thranduil did see the threat from the easterlings as very significant to his Woodland realm.

Considering Jackson marched an army of elves a couple hundred miles through enemy-held territory filled with 10,000 orcs without anyone noticing, sure, why not. In Jackson's warped universe, Galadriel and Celeborn's forces obviously were not needed to battle the orkish invasion taking place from Dol Guldur that required a united Elven attack from Thranduil and Celeborn's armies to defeat (part of an all-encompassing Sauronian battle plan that included a related Easterling invasion of Dale/Erebor).

But hey, a bizarre premise deserves further bizarre extrapolation further back into history. Simple minds make no effort at nuance or big picture strategy, and simply throw any amount of crap on a wall, hoping something will stick.

Huinesoron 01-05-2018 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victariongreyjoy (Post 710212)
I know Gondor and the Eotheod was the main protaginists of the war, but in the movieverse, do you think Thranduil may perhaps assisted Men by sending a small squad lead by Legolas and Tauriel during the war? Because surely Thranduil did see the threat from the easterlings as very significant to his Woodland realm.

The key to this question has to be when Movie!Thranduil became an isolationist xenophobe. We know he was still paying homage to Thror in ?2770 (or at least, the year the Kingdom under the Mountain fell - I'm not sure if the timeline is attested on-screen), because there's that scene of him arriving, seeing Smaug, and going 'welp, I'm out, MOOSE AWAY!'. Said scene also tells us that he didn't like interacting with Thror's people - though that might be the sheer indignity of it.

The invasion of Calenardhon by the Balchoth took place in 2510, actually before Erebor was reoccupied in 2590. Does that mean Thranduil would be less grumpy about foreigners? Or more, because he hadn't yet had the (forced) contact with Dale and Erebor. We'd probably need to know whether he also paid homage to Thrain I and Thorin I to figure this out.

I only saw the Hobbit movies when they came out, so I find this one difficult to divine: is Thranduil a recent xenophobe, or is it a long-standing trait? We know he has bad experience with dragons, but that doesn't really answer the question. So, so - at least we can say that if he hates foreigners, he probably wouldn't lift a finger to help Gondor.

Things are a bit more interesting if he was less of a grump back in the days of the Balchoth. The Greenwood wasn't darkened then (we saw very clearly that Sauron, the Nazgul, and the Spiders all arrived simultaneously right at the start of the movies, brutally traumatising poor Sebastian), so the Elvenking's domain (at least in his head) probably extended right to the southern eaves - right on the border with the lands the Balchoth emerged from to attack Calenardhon

But... did Thranduil even have reason to hate them? We know that in the books, the Balchoth attacked with Orcish reinforcements, doing so only 50 years after Sauron's return to Dol Guldur; it seems reasonable to suppose a connection. But in the movies, Dol Guldur was still abandoned at the time of the attack. Might the Balchoth not have allied with the Orcs?

In fact, might they have been at peace with Thranduil? Oh, yes, they invaded Rhovanion as the Wainriders, were driven back, then invaded again as the Balchoth (this is the Movieverse, ambiguity can go to Pot, they're clearly the same people) - but so what? Some Men squabbled with some other Men - what is that to the King of Greenwood the Great? As long as the wine keeps flowing from Dorwinion (down in what's definitely Balchoth territory), they can do what they like.

So there's my answer, as overwrought and ludicrous as the situation demands: Thranduil would not aid Gondor (whose peasants scoff at the elves of Lorien) or the Eotheod (who keep intruding on the western parts of his domain) against the Balchoth (who sell him very lovely wine); he'd just sit tight and wait a few decades for it all to blow over.

hS

Victariongreyjoy 01-06-2018 06:40 PM

When did Sauron returned to Dol Guldur in the books?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Huinesoron (Post 710340)

Things are a bit more interesting if he was less of a grump back in the days of the Balchoth. The Greenwood wasn't darkened then (we saw very clearly that Sauron, the Nazgul, and the Spiders all arrived simultaneously right at the start of the movies, brutally traumatising poor Sebastian), so the Elvenking's domain (at least in his head) probably extended right to the southern eaves - right on the border with the lands the Balchoth emerged from to attack Calenardhon

But... did Thranduil even have reason to hate them? We know that in the books, the Balchoth attacked with Orcish reinforcements, doing so only 50 years after Sauron's return to Dol Guldur; it seems reasonable to suppose a connection. But in the movies, Dol Guldur was still abandoned at the time of the attack. Might the Balchoth not have allied with the Orcs?

In fact, might they have been at peace with Thranduil? Oh, yes, they invaded Rhovanion as the Wainriders, were driven back, then invaded again as the Balchoth (this is the Movieverse, ambiguity can go to Pot, they're clearly the same people) - but so what? Some Men squabbled with some other Men - what is that to the King of Greenwood the Great? As long as the wine keeps flowing from Dorwinion (down in what's definitely Balchoth territory), they can do what they like.hS

Did Sauron return to Dol Guldur in the beginning of the T.A? And the orcs that aided the Balcoth could come from Mordor or Gundabad?
I don't think it's plausible for Thranduil(movie)to have a secret deal or neutral with the easterlings. He definately would have sense that Sauron and dark forces were behind the sudden agressive invasion by men of Rhun, and knows the danger they bring to his Woodland Realm.
But anway, do you think after the Battle of Five Armies, Thranduil may be more willing to have more interaction with Rohan or Dol Amroth? Weren't the Swan Knights more friendly to the elves than Gondor?

Morthoron 01-07-2018 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victariongreyjoy (Post 710345)
Weren't the Swan Knights more friendly to the elves than Gondor?

No. They would have had no contact with Elves for centuries.

Victariongreyjoy 01-07-2018 09:49 AM

But in the movieverse...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Morthoron (Post 710346)
No. They would have had no contact with Elves for centuries.

Thinking how much Jackson deviated from the books with the Hobbit, would it be possible to see Thranduil meeting up with Dol Amroth sometimes during the War of The Ring? Since they were omitted from ROTK, why not having them join forces with Woodland Realm fighting the orcs from Dol Guldur?

William Cloud Hicklin 01-08-2018 06:59 AM

All of Southern Mirkwood was under the control of the Necromancer, which means that having Thranduil come to the aid of Gondor vs the Balchoth pretty much doesn't work, unless they were to go by way of the Carrock and Lorien and come down from the north on the right bank (or swing around by way of Nearer Rhun!) Note that the Eotheod's passage was screened by Galadriel's mist, which implies that Dol Guldur was a very real threat even to swift-moving horsemen following Anduin, much less any Elves trying to move straight through the forest.

But if this is the Jacksonverse, then sure: have Legolas, Tauriel, Haldir, Elrond and Young Aragorn all turn up without explanation. Throw in Gandalf, and Bilbo's great^6 grandfather Pongo. Don't forget to have a dwarf to do pratfalls and belch.

Huinesoron 01-08-2018 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victariongreyjoy (Post 710347)
Thinking how much Jackson deviated from the books with the Hobbit, would it be possible to see Thranduil meeting up with Dol Amroth sometimes during the War of The Ring? Since they were omitted from ROTK, why not having them join forces with Woodland Realm fighting the orcs from Dol Guldur?

Because they would have had to march right past Minas Tirith or right through Rohan to get there. Dol Amroth is south of the White Mountains, so unless your name happens to end with 'heir of Isildur', you can only get to Mirkwood by going one of those two ways.

I can't contrive any scenario which would lead the Prince of Dol Amroth to travel further than the distance to his nation's capital, in order to fight a less-important battle than the one happening in the Pelennor.

Victariongreyjoy 01-10-2018 03:28 AM

Dol Amroth
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Huinesoron (Post 710349)
Because they would have had to march right past Minas Tirith or right through Rohan to get there. Dol Amroth is south of the White Mountains, so unless your name happens to end with 'heir of Isildur', you can only get to Mirkwood by going one of those two ways.

I can't contrive any scenario which would lead the Prince of Dol Amroth to travel further than the distance to his nation's capital, in order to fight a less-important battle than the one happening in the Pelennor.

I'm watching a map of the lands controlled by Gondor, and it seems to be Dol Amroth lay west for Gondor and very close to Rohan. But you're right, it wouldn's sound logical for Imrahil to take his army to fight in foreign lands than saving Gondor itself.

Huinesoron 01-10-2018 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victariongreyjoy (Post 710356)
I'm watching a map of the lands controlled by Gondor, and it seems to be Dol Amroth lay west for Gondor and very close to Rohan. But you're right, it wouldn's sound logical for Imrahil to take his army to fight in foreign lands than saving Gondor itself.

Indeed it does, but the only way to get to Mirkwood is either by following Anduin (past Minas Tirith), or by going through the Gap of Rohan, which obviously takes you through Rohan.

Or, I suppose, by heading up the west side of the Misty Mountains and taking either Caradhras or the High Pass... since we're in the Jacksonverse, anything's possible! Let's see...

~

The Age of Men is coming. The strength of the Elves is failing. War rages across Middle-earth, with hordes of vile creatures streaming out from Sauron's three strongholds: Orcs from Mordor, Uruk-Hai from Isengard, and Goblins from Dol Guldur.

Minas Tirith stands against the Orcs. Rohan fights hard against the Uruks. But all that lies in the path of the Goblins are the peace-loving Elven kingdoms of Lorien and Mirkwood...

Imrahil, half-elven prince of the fair city of Dol Amroth, cannot allow the lands of his ancestors to fall. Leaving his city to the depravations of the Corsairs of Umbar, he marches the proud Swan Knights north - past the White Mountains, past the Gap of Rohan, over the raging river Greyflood. He knows that the Balrog of Moria has been slain, and plans to lead his army through the deserted Mines to the liberation of Lorien, the rescue of Galadriel, and the destruction of Dol Guldur.

But something waits in the dark... the Watcher has not abandoned its post, and in the narrow corridors of the Dwarrowdelf, it has become a terror beyond imagining.

Will Imrahil make it out of the mountain alive, or will his cries ring from the foot of the Endless Stair to its peak? Find out in Peter Jackson's Middle-earth: Flight of the Swans - We Cannot Get Out, coming soon to a cinema near you!


~

... I bet you never thought this line of questioning would lead to Middle-earth themed Lovecraftian horror, did you? :D

(All in good fun, all in good fun...)

hS

Victariongreyjoy 01-10-2018 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huinesoron (Post 710360)
Indeed it does, but the only way to get to Mirkwood is either by following Anduin (past Minas Tirith), or by going through the Gap of Rohan, which obviously takes you through Rohan.

Or, I suppose, by heading up the west side of the Misty Mountains and taking either Caradhras or the High Pass... since we're in the Jacksonverse, anything's possible! Let's see...

~

The Age of Men is coming. The strength of the Elves is failing. War rages across Middle-earth, with hordes of vile creatures streaming out from Sauron's three strongholds: Orcs from Mordor, Uruk-Hai from Isengard, and Goblins from Dol Guldur.

Minas Tirith stands against the Orcs. Rohan fights hard against the Uruks. But all that lies in the path of the Goblins are the peace-loving Elven kingdoms of Lorien and Mirkwood...

Imrahil, half-elven prince of the fair city of Dol Amroth, cannot allow the lands of his ancestors to fall. Leaving his city to the depravations of the Corsairs of Umbar, he marches the proud Swan Knights north - past the White Mountains, past the Gap of Rohan, over the raging river Greyflood. He knows that the Balrog of Moria has been slain, and plans to lead his army through the deserted Mines to the liberation of Lorien, the rescue of Galadriel, and the destruction of Dol Guldur.

But something waits in the dark... the Watcher has not abandoned its post, and in the narrow corridors of the Dwarrowdelf, it has become a terror beyond imagining.

Will Imrahil make it out of the mountain alive, or will his cries ring from the foot of the Endless Stair to its peak? Find out in Peter Jackson's Middle-earth: Flight of the Swans - We Cannot Get Out, coming soon to a cinema near you!


~

... I bet you never thought this line of questioning would lead to Middle-earth themed Lovecraftian horror, did you? :D

(All in good fun, all in good fun...)

hS

Judging from how PJ made the Hobbit movies, your idea cannot be dismissed :)
I was thinking IF a War of the North movie were to be made by WB and the actors protraying the elves from The Hobbit and LOTR, I would make Beregond that were omitted from ROTK be a different character in this film. Perhaps he could be a high ranking squad leader of a Ithilien guard squad operating in the areas around the Misty Mountain. A elite sub-unit from the Tower Guard battalion. Perhaps he encounters the elves of Loriena and Woodland Realm. In my opinion, it isn't impossible that such a thing could occur.


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