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Aragorn_the_Ranger 12-06-2002 12:07 AM

The White Council
 
In the appendices, I noticed that there was a White Council and I think that the reason for Gandalf's leaving in the Hobbit was due to the threat of Dol Guldur and the White Council had to meet. I know Gandalf and Saruman were in the council but who else were.

out,

Jarryd

the phantom 12-06-2002 12:29 AM

The wizards, Elrond, Galadriel...others too, just too late to think who or look it up. Even if not specifically stated, I would imagine some like Erestor and Glorfindel were in on it too.

Kalimac 12-06-2002 12:40 AM

I don't know if it's mentioned, but it would make sense for Radagast to be there, since he and Gandalf and Saruman would be the only three wizards extant in ME, so to speak. Of course it's rather easy to picture Radagast forgetting about the meetings, or not bothering to attend because the woods were more attractive.

Inderjit Sanghera 12-06-2002 06:04 AM

Defintley in council
Gandalf
Saruman
Galadriel
Elrond
Celeborn
Cirdan

Probably in council
Elladan
Elrohir
Glorfindel
Thranduil
Radagast
Erestor

Possibly in Council
Allatar
Pallando
Chieftan of Dundedain of Arnor
Gildor

Frodo Baggins 12-06-2002 09:44 AM

Finally a thread about The White Council!!

Wow Inderjit! That's a good thought!

Where did the council meet?

Dimaldaeon 12-06-2002 01:45 PM

The council met at Rivendell

Aragorn_the_Ranger 12-06-2002 10:14 PM

So the council always meet at Rivendell.

I asumed that they would meet somewhere different as in "The Hobbit" Gandalf goes south I believe and that is when he urges the attack on Dol Guldur [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

Anyway,
Cya

Man-of-the-Wold 12-08-2002 10:43 PM

May for the attack of Dol Guldor they met at Rhosgobel. Isengard might have been a meeting place once, or even Caras Galadhon, but Rivendell seems the most likely. I consider its member to be be:

Saruman
Gandalf
Galadriel
Elrond
Cirdan
Celeborn
Glorfindel
Erestor
Galdor
Radagast

Elladan and Elrohir were not old enough to be among "The Wise", and I don't think even attended the Council of Elrond. If them, then why not Arwen? I think no Dwarf or Man belonged, Dunedain or not, would have been a member, with occasional exceptions such as maybe later versions of personages like Malbeth. It doesn't seem, for example, that Saruman even knew that the Line of Isildur survived. Thranduil is out, 'cuz he had no great knowledge or involvement with the attack on Dol Guldor and seems not too regularly in touch with Celeborn in those days. Gildor was clearly too disinterested in Worldly affairs, and not really all that special. The Two Blue Wizards had not involvement by that point in activities in the West, if they even still existed.

Bill Ferny 12-09-2002 09:07 AM

I disagree that Radagast attended the White Council. He is directly mentioned in Of the Rings of Power and Third Age, but in the same he is absent from the list of those present even though Gandalf and Saruman are mentioned by name:

Quote:

...and therein were Elrond and Galadriel and Círdan, and other lords of the Eldar, and with them were Mithrandir and Curunír.
It seems that if these Istari were mentioned by name, that the other Istari were not present. It would follow then that Radagast, like the Blue Wizards, was not present.

Inderjit Sanghera 12-09-2002 09:13 AM

I think that they may have met in several places. I guess:

Isengard
Lorien
Rivendell

I don't think their age matterrs. 3 thousand years isn't really young. Gil-galad, was only a few hundred years old when he became king. They were the sons of Elrond and grandchildren of Celeborn and Galadriel and great-grand children of Finarfin, so they were bound to be born with some inherent wisdom.

Galorme 12-09-2002 10:42 AM

I have a question: The attack on Dol Guldor was carried out by the White Wizards. Does that mean the White Council? Or perhaps the Istari were The White Wizards.

Did the Wizards lead an Army? That doesn't seem their style somehow. Maybe it was literally as it sounds: The 5 wizards alone took on the tower of Thú. Now that would be pretty cool, especially as they won. Not entirely inconceivable really, since Luthien and Huan took down a tower.

I must say the idea I got in the hobbit, of an army of wizards, all dressed in White taking on the tower was a wonderful idea. Any more mention of this anywhere? I am going to go look it up.

Aragorn_the_Ranger 12-10-2002 03:03 AM

Dol Guldur was a mountain anyway...

Inderjit Sanghera 12-10-2002 07:23 AM

Isn't it a tower on a hill? I thought that the only mountians in mirkwood, were the ones in it's mountain range.

Galorme 12-10-2002 12:35 PM

You know what i mean. Is that all i get? No answer to the question? [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Rumil 12-10-2002 03:03 PM

Well I think it was a good question Galorme [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I guess the assault on Dol Guldur must have been put together in Lothlorien. I see two alternatives.

Maybe it was a purely 'magical' attack, with the council members (Gandalf, Elrond, Saruman etc.) lending their power to Galadriel to extend her 'anti-bad guy' exclusion zone over the river to Dol Guldur, making the place untenable by the Necromancer and his servants. Presumably this would have used the combined powers of all three elven rings.

Alternatively, could there have been a physical assault on Dol Guldur by the elves of Lothlorien? I'd guess this would be backed up with as much 'magic' as possible as above.

The books don't seem to provide any info on the subject, so its down to us to speculate!

By the way, Dol Guldur was an isolated mountain in Southern Mirkwood. It had been an elven settlement in earlier days, but was now Sauron's Western HQ. Don't know if it had buildings and towers etc. but it certainly had dungeons, where Thrain was imprisoned (100 years ago last Tuesday from the start of the Hobbit!)

Galorme 12-10-2002 03:23 PM

It was a tower like Minith Tirith (the first one on Tol Sirion). Or at least that's the impression i got. I am not so sure about Towers, because Minis Tirith (the White City) was a city, or a massive fortress.

Thanks a lot for that Rumil, thats a pretty good way of looking at it. A battle with armies would have been unlikely, I think it would have had more mention. *Checks the tale of years*

Ohh here is something interesting. Apparently there was never a battle as such. Saruman (in the year *arg dropped the book* 2851) stopped the council attacking Dul Guldor, after Gandalf (who infiltrated it the previous year) says that it must not be allowed to stand. It wasn't till 90 years later that Saruman agreed to the attack, but as soon as he did Sauron abandoned Dul Guldor in favour of Mordor. Saruman probably tipped him off.

So yeah Gandalf was really blowing his own horn a little bit when he said that they had driven out Sauron. In fact he has just threatened to attack and thus causes Sauron to flee.

Man-of-the-Wold 12-14-2002 01:48 AM

I would agree that if Radagast was a member of the White Council is was in only a nominal, insignificant way, and perhaps he missed meetings.

I do not think that Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen were members. I think among Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan, Glorfindel, Celeborn, Galdor and Erestor, one has plenty Wise Eldar, anymore and its an Elven Congress.

As for the attack on Dol Guldor, I don't think that bringing together the Three would have been explicitly recognized as part of it among even the participants. The bearers of the Three was a secret until the end of the Third Age, although if Saruman suspected Gandalf has having acquired one, anyone could easily guess where the other two likely were.

As for the attack on Dol Guldor, I believe there may have been assembled an army of Elves from mostly Lothlorien, with possibly another relatively small contingency led by someone such as Glordindel out of Eriador. But I imagine that the main method of the attack was to be carried out through powers vying with Sauron in ways not unlike how Finrod and Luthien fought him. What that would look like I can't really say. It's for the imagination.

Clearly, Gandalf travelled to the vicinity in leaving Thorin & Co. Saruman may have also set up shop nearby from which to project force, and Galadriel was of course already close at hand. Others of the Council or their agents may have gone to Lothlorien, too. I doubt Cirdan did, but he could have sent capable veterans of past exchanges. I think the ending of "The Hobbit" would leave one to wonder if Elrond had actually gone anywhere "physically" in the time between Bilbo's visits, although its quite logically to assume that Glorfindel would have gone forth.

Regardless, of how much conventional military strength was had hand to protect and assist the powers vying directly with the Necromancer, the whole thing probably went off unexpectedly well, because as we all know, Sauron is said to have feigned retreat, as he already was inclined to declare himself in Mordor.

Galorme 12-14-2002 05:24 AM

There was no attack on Dul Gulder (see Apendix B to RoTK). Gandalf merely said "Lets Attack" and Sauron fled, there was no actual fighting (or it seems there wasn't).

Oh yeah and thanks, vying is my new favourite word.

Orald 12-14-2002 06:21 PM

I seriously doubt all of those people met. The chiefs of the dunedain were definately not members. Members of the council would have included only the wisest. The Istari that could attend, Galadriel, maybe Celeborn, Cirdan, and Elrond in all probability were the only members.

Lostgaeriel 03-18-2003 09:35 PM

As for WHERE the White Council met, please see my reply posted today at another thread also titled The White Council.

I did a bit of research.

Melhilion 03-19-2003 07:12 PM

I think it would have been great if all leaders from the different races and cities to come to one counsel. I doesn't matter if they are wise or not. They could have started something like a United Nations in ME. But since the wisest are very important they should put some one like Gandalf, Elrond, or Galadreial in charge of the meeting they could have.

Also I know 3 rings where given to the Elven Rulers but I don't know who all got them so could some one please tell me.

P.S.
This is a Great Thread

Lostgaeriel 03-19-2003 09:21 PM

With very minimal research using the Index and Appendices of The Lord of the Rings or The Silmarillion or by using The Barrow Downs SEARCH function (in Books or in Novices & Newcomers, you could have discovered this information for yourself.
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

And if it weren't easier for me to type this out than to do the BD search and post a link or two I would have done that.

Narya ‘the Ring of Fire’ or ‘the Red Ring’ was borne by Círdan and afterwards by Mithrandir.

Nenya ‘the Ring of Water’, or ‘the Ring of Adamant’ was borne by Galadriel.

Vilya ‘the Ring of Air’, ‘the Blue Ring’ or ‘the Ring of Sapphire’ was borne by Gil-galad and afterwards by Elrond.

But you bring up an interesting point. Three members of the White Council had Rings of Power but Saruman did not. No wonder he began to envy and mistrust Gandalf, Galadriel & Elrond and lusted for the One Ring.

Aragorn_the_Ranger 03-19-2003 09:47 PM

Saruman did not know that Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf had the rings.

Scott 03-19-2003 10:32 PM

I know that it is definitely stated that he did not know that Gandalf had a ring (that Cirdan had secretly given it to him upon his arrival to Middle Earth), but I always thought that he would have known that Elrond and Galadriel had the other rings and probably presumed that Cirdan still had the other.
The whole purpose of the White Council was to discuss and keep watch upon the rings of power. Saruman, being on the council and not even evil at first, would have been in the loop about who had what for the most part.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.

Iarhen 03-20-2003 10:44 AM

Saruman did not know who posessed the rings. Only the elven lords that had them knew of the other ones. Galadriel, Elrond, Gil Galad, Cirdan, Mithrandir and Celebrimbor were the only ones who knew about it.

It was forbidden to talk about them. Even Elrond was not allowed to do so. Galadriel states that in chapter "The Mirror of Galadriel".

Besides, if Saruman knew about it, he would probably end up trying to steal a ring (or all 3) from their owners... But DEFINETELY Sauron would have known whom the Elven Ring Bearers were.

Sauron read Saruman's mind, and knew about his knowledge. Saruman did not knew that his mind was read (and his will posessed). I presume that such a valuable piece of info (who has the 3 elven rings?) would have been searched by Sauron in Saruman's mind...


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