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Aredhelaran 01-30-2003 04:14 PM

Saruman (where he went)
Where did Saruman's spirit go after he died?null

lathspell 01-30-2003 04:30 PM

I may be wrong in this, but I don't believe this is answered in any of the books. Only that a strong Westwind took it and bore it away Eastward.

If this is answerable, please let someone tell this, because (if it is) I am quite curious as well.

Cazoz 01-30-2003 05:42 PM

I've wondered this too, I guess all we can do is speculate.

Sauron was defeated and his spirit left his body numerous times. But in this case, it was his bondage (!) to the Ring which kept him on earth, or at least Middle Earth, as long as the Ring existed. And when Numenor went under, his spirit drifted away back to ME.

Gandalf, another Maia, left his body even though his spirit never died. And he was sent back by Manwe or even Eru (I'm not sure). But had the task have been completed, I am sure he would have been able to just exist as before in Valinor.

Saruman was immmortal. Not Elf immortal, but immortal like the other Ainur. All I would guess is that his spirit came back or was summoned to Valinor where he would have stood some sort of trial. But this is all obviously guesswork.

And perhaps most of his Maia qualities had left him, and he wasn't much more than a bitter old Man with an enchanting voice? Maybe he died a mortal Man's death, having practically become one?

He certainly wasn't evil enough to have been Voided. Who knows?

Rumil 01-30-2003 06:05 PM

I got the impression that his spirit 'tried' to ascend to Valinor, but was rejected (the wind from the west).

Was it then destroyed, left in limbo or sent 'beyond the circles of the world' to hang around with Morgoth and Sauron until the final battle?

Perhaps the old deceiver settled down to haunt a hole in Hobbiton.

burrahobbit 01-31-2003 03:52 PM

Saruman went TO HELL!!!!

And what I mean by that is he was left without form forever as a wandering spirit.

And who says Sauron got tossed out?

Aredhelaran 02-01-2003 04:59 PM

Saruman Didný have a ring. Thanks for the input. It's pretty interesting.

Ultimatejoe 02-01-2003 11:58 PM

I've always took the passage to mean that Saruman's spirit was rejected by the 'west' or Valinor, and his spirit was left to wander houseless and shapeless.

burrahobbit 02-02-2003 12:02 AM

Saruman had a ring, but it didn't do anything.

doug*platypus 02-02-2003 02:27 AM

Good point.

"Look what I made! I am Saruman Ring-Maker!"

"Neat. What does it do?"

"uh... look what I made!"

I don't know much about the cosmology of Arda, but wouldn't the Valar have to push Saruman out the Door of Night for him to enter the Outer Void? Ditto Sauron? It seems likely to me that, rather than keeping Morgoth company, they are flitting around Middle-Earth somewhere, bodiless and completely powerless, and not very happy.

Inderjit Sanghera 02-02-2003 12:25 PM

I agree, he was problably wandering around M-E like a faded Elven spirit.

Marigold Hedgeworth 03-16-2003 04:52 PM


And who says Sauron got tossed out?
burrahobit, the Valaquenta does, at least if I'm interpreting it right...


But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.
(emphasis mine)

balrogman 03-16-2003 07:13 PM

I think that his spirit just floated east and kept going until he was well past even the iron hills and then fell into nothingness.

Meoshi 03-16-2003 07:55 PM

I personally like the idea of Sauron or Saruman being able to rebody themselves, but only as something horrendously weaker than their former selves, like some sort of bug, or small mammal. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Scott 03-16-2003 08:45 PM

I don't think that it is really a question of them going anywhere...
Now this may seem allegorical, and excuse me Mr. Tolkien if it is, but I've always felt that Sauron and Saruman embodied the evil (Morgoth?) in the world. Whether their physical forms ever transcended to anything higher or lower isn't really the point.
The point is simply that their essence, what they above all embodied, endured and will remain in the world until the "ambarmetta", or end of the world.
The symbolism of Saruman's spirit being wisked from Valannor seems to be only a stress on the point of what he came to represent.

Whether Saruman, or Sauron, ever came back again in a form of material essence before the end of days doesn't matter. Their spirits will endure to corrupt, dominate, ensare, and damn no matter what.

Findegil 03-17-2003 06:39 AM

If we look closer at the examples we have for the daeth of an Istar I would think, that Sarumans spirit was sumound to Eru and remaind there for ever.
Gandlaf died on the summit of Celeb-dil in a sense that man die: he left the world and the time and had a meeting with Eru. Eru decieded to sent him back to fulfill his task.
When Saruman died his spirit went wither it was doomed to go. That is very vague, but cold very well stand for the same thing.

In the Essay on the Istari it was told that only Gandalf ever returned to valinor. So way wounldn't the spirit of Radagast seek a way back? In my veiw, because he couldn't do it.

I think it was part of the quest of the Istari, that they took up a live like to men only that they had no natural limit to thier livespan. But death was for them like it is for man: the final end of thier stay in time and history and a ticket for a return to the creator of all.


Iarhen 03-17-2003 08:50 AM

Do you think that Saruman´s spirit will return with Morgoth, along Sauron, to aid the evil guys in the final battle in Valinor?

Scott 03-17-2003 10:05 PM

Although I still do hold to what I said about Saruman's spirit still being within Middle Earth, I think that Saruman is definitely a key and crucial player to the final chapter of Middle Earth's history. I've always kind of pictured it as a sort of reunion, on both sides, of key players that have passed.

Iarephelion 03-20-2003 12:17 AM

Unfinished Tales p. 391

Whereas Curunir was cast down, and utterly humbled, and perished at last by the hand of an oppressed slave;and his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go, and to Middle Earth,whether naked or embodied, came never back.
It is not stated here where Saruman's spirit wound up but it was not Middle Earth nor is it likely he went back into the West. It is also said on the previous page that the memory of the Blessed Realm (Valinor) remained while the Istari were true to their purpose. This implies that those who lost their way (arguably including Radagast) also lost the knowledge of whence they had come.

[ March 20, 2003: Message edited by: Iarephelion ]

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