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Findegil 08-20-2017 04:21 PM

VE-13.045 As you have already guested this change was based on our working assumption that there existed only 3 to 7 Balrogs (see the famous thread Bye Bye Balrogs). After the Fall of Gondolin were Gothmog and the Balrog of Glorfindel were killed, we have to assume that in the War of Wrath only 1 to 5 Balrogs fought. We know for sure that 1 fled and hid himself under the mountains of Moria. Leaving none to 4 Barlogs to utterly destroyed or as well to hid themselves. We tried to keep the possibilities open by saying that they were destroyed if they did not hid themself. But as at seems we did not make it correctly. Please advise if how we can better this passage, without specifying any numbers of Balrog slain or hid away.

Eredlindon: You are right that we have to introduce a change. But the hyphen is not correct. I think we should add to the general changes:
{Eredlindon}[Ered Lindon] per Sil77. It also corosponds to the spelling in LotR (see e.g. Ered Nimrais).

Introducing this I found also:
{Eredwethion}[Ered Wethrin] per Sil77.

Posted by ArcusCalion:

In the later myths this geographical place was called Lindon, ...
Can you give us a source for that?

Posted by ArcusCalion:

I seemed to remember that in MT there's a footnote about the seeming inaccuracy of this statement in terms of even the flat earth cosmology. Tolkien remarks that it undoubtedly arises from the recording discrepancies of the Mannish scholars. I cannot at present find the quote, but would it be a good idea to include that as a footnote?
I don't think a foot note is the right way here, but an inclusion could be possible. Please provide the quote.


ArcusCalion 08-20-2017 10:13 PM



VE-13.04 <AB2 The waters of Sirion lay between the hosts; and long and bitterly they contested the passage. But at last [Eönwë] crossed Sirion and the hosts of Morgoth were driven as leaves, and the Balrogs were utterly destroyed> <BT, save VE-13.045 {some few} [any] that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth> , <AB1 and Morgoth[‘s army] fled to Angband pursued by the hosts of [Eönwë].>
My source is simply the fact that in the original conception, Leithian was meant to be a name for England, as it tells in the Tale of Eriol in the Book of Lost Tales Part II. Unless we assume the term refers to the entire north, it must be assumed that it refers to the place where Gil-Galad made his kingdom in Lindon, where the largest portion of the Elves were said to live. Christopher himself replaced it with "Middle-earth" to avoid the use of the word. However, I might simply be reading too much into it.

This is the quote:


When that body was destroyed he was weak and utterly "houseless," and for that time at a loss and "unanchored" as it were. We read that he was then thrust out into the Void. That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Ea altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar). It may refer inaccurately to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda.

{Note} Since the minds of Men (and even of the Elves) were inclined to confuse the "Void," as a conception of the state of Not-being, outside of Ea, with the conception of vast spaces within Ea, especially those conceived to lie all about the encircled "Kingdom of Arda" (which we should probably call the Solar System).
This is from section 3 of the "Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion. The fact that he says "we read that.." means that we cannot add a correction into the text, hence my desire to include a footnote. Perhaps an edited version of the Myths Transformed essays could be included in Volume 3: The Lore of the Wise, so that this appearance of contradiction may be addressed?

Findegil 08-27-2017 11:52 AM

VE-13.045: Okay, your 'any' seems good.

VE-19: I agree to the chnage {Leithien}[Lindon].

About Morogth thrust through the Door of Night: I think we agree that we can not change the text. As you suggest I am very symphatic with a edited version of MT in Part 3.


Aiwendil 10-07-2017 02:27 PM

Well, I was going to read through all the new discussions before jumping in again, but I've changed my mind.

I think ArcusCalion's suggestions are almost all good; thanks for catching these things!

The only one I would look at again is VE-13.045, where I think the "any" sounds too legalistic and out of place. I actually do think the "they" is grammatically all right - "save they fled" meaning "unless they fled".

Is the version of this chapter in the private forum up to date? I have a file of notes on further changes and things I'd caught (from 2009!), which I don't think I ever posted for discussion, but I want to make sure they apply to the latest version of the text before I do so.

Findegil 10-07-2017 04:06 PM

The version in the members only forum is not up to date. Since the discussion here was not ended I did not update it so far. See your mail.


Aiwendil 10-07-2017 09:07 PM

All right, below are my notes on the Earendil chapter. I think that a few of these points are things that ArcusCalion also noted, and have been addressed (Gwareth/Gwared, Leithien).


Originally Posted by Aiwendil
VE-01: At line 5 in the Lay fragment there is a missing {Gwareth}[Gwared] change.

Also, I now have doubts about moving these lines to the end:


all this have others in ancient stories
and songs unfolded, but say I further
It doesn’t really work if we simply put a period at the end of it; ‘say I further’ feels like it needs to have an object. Since we are using the fragment as the beginning of the Earendil chapter, rather than at the end of the Gondolin chapter, I think perhaps we can leave those lines where they originally were:


VE-01 <Lay Lo! the flame of fire and fierce hatred
engulfed Gondolin and its glory fell,
its tapering towers and its tall rooftops
were laid all low, and its leaping fountains
made no music more on the mount of Gwareth,
and its whitehewn walls were whispering ash.
{But Wade of the Helsings wearyhearted}
{Tûr}[Tuor] the earthborn was tried in battle
from the wrack and ruin a remnant led
women and children and wailing maidens
and wounded men of the withered folk
down the path unproven that pierced the hillside,
neath {Tumladin}[Tumladen] he led them to the leaguer of hills
that rose up rugged as ranged pinnacles
to the north of the vale. There the narrow way
{of Cristhorn was cloven, the Cleft of Eagles,}
[in the cliffs was cloven, Cirith Thoronath,]
through the midmost mountains. And more is told
in lays and in legend and lore of others
of that weary way of the wandering folk;
how the waifs of Gondolin outwitted {Melko}[Morgoth],
vanished o'er the vale and vanquished the hills,
how Glorfindel the golden in the gap of the Eagles
battled with the Balrog and both were slain:
one like flash of fire from fangéd rock,
one like bolted thunder black was smitten
to the dreadful deep digged by {Thornsir}[Thor’nhir].
Of the thirst and hunger of the {thirty moons}[thwarting mazes]
when they sought for Sirion and were sore bestead
by plague and peril; of the Pools of Twilight
and Land of Willows; when their lamentation
was heard in the halls where the high {Gods}[Lords] sate
veiled in Valinor [past] the Vanished {Isles}[Isle];
all this have others in ancient stories
and songs unfolded, but say I further
how their lot was lightened, how they laid them down
in long grasses of the Land of Willows.
There sun was softer, [there] the sweet breezes
and whispering winds, there wells of slumber
and the dew enchanted, [drenched then their feet.]
The opening paragraph reads rather well considering that it was fashioned out of so many diverse sources. One point, thought:


<TE-N(iii) smaller than most men but nimbled-footed and a swift swimmer (but Voronwë could not swim).>
As Voronwe has not yet been named in this chapter, this really comes out of the blue. Moreover, I doubt whether it’s true. In the Lost Tales Voronwe was an escaped thrall of Angband; in the later story he was the captain of the last ship sent west at Turgon’s bidding. I know that the Noldor were not renowned for their skill as ship-builders or mariners, but surely Turgon would at least have been able to find a captain who could swim! I suggest we delete the parenthetical comment:


<TE-N(iii) smaller than most men but nimbled-footed and a swift swimmer {(but Voronwë could not swim)}.>
In VE-07:


There {is a skiff}[was the Eärámë]. {Tur}[Tuor and Idril] {bids}bade farwell to {Eärendel}[Eärendil] and {bids}bade him thrust it off
I would not use the article with the name of the ship. Also, there’s a typo in ‘farwell’:


There {is a skiff}[was Eärámë]. {Tur}[Tuor and Idril] {bids}bade farewell to {Eärendel}[Eärendil] and {bids}bade him thrust it off
In VE-10:


and <FG Galdor {'was} that valiant {Gnome}[Noldo]
I think that, following our general policy (see the general name changes thread) we should emend to ‘Elf’ rather than ‘Noldo’:


and <FG Galdor {'was} that valiant {Gnome}[Elf]


VE-11 But Ulmo bore her up and he gave unto her the likeness of a great white bird, and upon her breast there shone as a star the shining Silmaril,
Immediately before this comes an inserted passage wherein the survivors tell of the capture of Elrond and Elros and Elwing’s casting herself in the sea. I think that the transition to this paragraph, giving now new information (in the narrator’s voice, not the survivors’) is a little unclear. Perhaps emending ‘her’ to ‘Elwing’ would improve it a little:


VE-11 But Ulmo bore {her}Elwing up and he gave unto her the likeness of a great white bird, and upon her breast there shone as a star the shining Silmaril,
VE-11.025: I think the word ‘like’ was accidentally left out of the deletion brackets. It should be:


VE-11.025 <Letter no. 211 The infants were not slain, but left {like 'babes in the wood',} in a cave with a fall of water over the entrance.
Another small thing:


Maybe it was due in part to the puissance of that holy jewel that they came in time to the waters that as yet no vessels save those of the Teleri had known; and they came to the Enchanted Isles and thus they escaped their enchantment.
I don’t think we really need the editorial addition here. It seems clear from the preceding clause that it was by reason of the power of the Silmaril that they escaped the enchantments. Moreover, unless some editorial marks are missing, doesn’t this sentence all come from the same source? I think some mark must be missing, because the base text for this chapter should be QS37, but unless I’m much mistaken, that’s not where the beginning of this sentence comes from. (I admit it’s a little bewildering to try to follow what text comes from what source in this chapter.)

VE-11.02: After the insertion concerning the sleeper in the Tower of Pearl we have:


}And Eärendil and his companions came into the Shadowy Seas and passed their shadows
This is a bit of a non sequitur since we have just told of the sleeper’s warning to them. At least we should change the ‘and’ to ‘but’:


}But Eärendil and his companions came into the Shadowy Seas and passed their shadows

VE-11.04: Another [Finarfin] misspelling.

VE-13.02: ‘Galion’ should be changed to ‘Galdor’.

VE-15: A typo here; the period after ‘even’ should be removed:


were they withheld, even. against the victorious host of Valinor
VE-19: I think we should probably remove the reference to the ‘land of Leithien’ here. It seems to be a remnant of the Lost Tales idea that Great Britain (Leithien) was a remnant of Beleriand.

VE-21: The text has:


u]A[/u] <BT rumour{ of his words} was whispered among {all }the {Elves}[Men] of the West>, thus{Thus} spake Mandos in prophecy, when the {Gods}[Valar] sat in judgement in Valinor{, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West}.
I think the word ‘that’ is missing:


A <BT rumour {of his words} was whispered among the {Elves}[Men] of the West>, that thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the {Gods}[Valar] sat in judgement in Valinor {, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West}.

One point that I've just noticed in looking over this again is in VE-01, where I've realized I don't think the last line works. "Drenched their feet" is all well and good for the "dew enchanted", but the predicate must equally apply to the "sweet breezes", "whispering winds", and "wells of slumber". I'm not quite sure how to solve this yet, but I will think on it and see if I can come up with a suitable half-line.

ArcusCalion 10-07-2017 11:44 PM

Aiwendil It's funny, I find myself pointing out less of these errors than I catch, because I usually just correct them in my own personal "clean" "readable version" of the texts. Your changes are all great though, especially the removal of the "thus they" from "thus they escaped their enchantments." That has never sat well with me, but I didnt question it, thinking it was already finalized.

Aiwendil 10-08-2017 11:57 AM

Glad you agree with my suggestions!

VE-01: A possibility to fix the end of the alliterative fragment here:


There sun was softer, [there] the sweet breezes
and whispering winds, there wells of slumber
and the dew enchanted, [their dolour eased.]

Findegil 10-08-2017 06:22 PM

VE-01: Agreed to all your changes.

Don't you know that the best mariners can not swim? A good swimmer would probably leave a ship in danger to early. So I don't think Voronwë would necessarily be a swimmer.

VE-07: Corrected.

VE-10: Agreed.

VE-11: Agreed.

VE-11.025: Agreed.

'Maybe it was due ...': I agree to remove 'thus they'. I will research the sources. but that might take some time.

VE-11.02: Agreed.

VE-11.04: Corrected.

VE-13.02: Corrected.

VE-15: Corrected.

VE-19: Following ArcusCalion's idea we changed {Leitian}[Lindon].

VE-21: Agreed.


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