what's up w/ Frodo
 

In the FotR, Frodo is determined and cool. He don't whine that much and seems to do his share. In TTT, it's like he just gets whimpy-er and whimpy-er. On top of that, from what I've seen from RotK, it looks like he cant do nothin for himself.

It's supposed to be showing us how powerful the Ring is, & what the Ring is doing to Frodo. Personally I think that PJ is over-dramatizing the deterieration of Frodo. He shouldn't be in his TTT state until RotK, & I'm sure that he really shouldn't be in his RotK state until they reach Mt. Doom. Although I'm all for waiting & finding out, I don't think PJ is leaving himself much room in this particular situation.

Elvish Archer, have you read the books? If you had, perhaps you would recall the line:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Frodo's head was bowed; his burden was dragging him down. (The Two Towers)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Or perhaps you recall Frodo struggling on in a "dark hour of weariness, still labouring under the stony shadows of Cirith Ungol." <P>Both of these take place in the Two Towers book, and are meant as exposition for the final and mentally/physically corrosive struggle to reach Mount Doom and fulfill his quest.<P>In the Return of the King, the "Land of Shadow" and "Mount Doom" chapters clearly display Frodo's agony and suffering, as he literally attempts to crawl through Mordor and up the mountain (after narrowling escaping from wearysome and extremely dangerous orc-toil), and Sam has to end up carrying him.<P>I'm not sure if your point was to criticize the movies or the source material (the books), but either way your argument is unsupported.<P>Welcome to the Downs.

He's carrying a huge great immensly evil Ring. It's constantly trying to overpower him and take him, like it did Boromir. It wants to be found by Sauron, it's always trying to get back to him. Every step closer to Mordor he goes it's heavier and a harder burden for him. The Ring is immensly powerful, it's corrupting him and eating him up from the inside. Considering what he must do (and that he's being searched for by terrifying winged Nazgul) I think he barely whines at all. And I certainly wouldn't call him wimpy.

I for one would certainly not call Frodo wimpy. Would you have the guts to go up against a Dark Lord that could crush you under his little finger like a gnat? I certainly wouldn't! For me, it would be too much to go up against the Nazgul, much less Orcs and Uruk-hai. And as for whiny, I would have to say that he nearly never whines.

But he does fall flat on his back and roll his eyes a lot ...

I agree with you Saucepan Man! <BR>It has been said: Frodo (in the Movie) has four expressions: Terrified, Overwhelmed, Sad, REALLY REALLY Terrified. (Though it can be argued that in the beginning of FotR he is happy for 5 minuets). Tough personally he did have a lot of stress wit the ring and all but (as The Only Real Estel said) PJ might be over-dramatizing (just a little to get the point across). <P>TTFN<p>[ September 26, 2003: Message edited by: Jack ]

I agree, I think that Frodo has deteriorated too soon. To have him deteriorating from the start of TTT...well, how much worse can he get? When I read the books I didn't get that feeling of utter hopelessness until they were in Mordor.

You must understand things in perspective though. Frodo had been near the ring since he lived with Bilbo. Bilbo left it to him when he was 33 but Frodo didn't actually leave the Shire until he was 50. So the ring had an early start yet Frodo was resiliant to it power. Then he gets stabbed with mogul blade and "The wound will never fully heal"-Elrond, Fellowship of the Ring(Movies). Then Gandalf, one of his closest friends die, I'd probably give up hope there without the burden of the ring. Finally after a long and difficult struggle he reches Mordor and the Black Gate, by now the ring is causing his stabb wound to give him great pain and is getting really heavy. His rations are meager so he has little strength left. Yet he still has a long way to go and now he is randomly being controled by the ring, his strength is giving way and he can't fight it much longer. To top it all off he is following a guide who is planning to betray and kill him. Now tell me, honestly, do you think that you would have lasted half as long as he did? He has just reasons to act thus in the movie many of which I have named above. Frodo is a very strong character though he may not have excelent fighting skills, he truly is the hero of the story. He bears a burden that Galadriel and Gandalf could not. Nor could Aragorn or Legolas, though they had the fighting skills. Frodo had the strongest heart and the greater goodness. The only one who might have been abe to take the ring to Mordor is Sam and such a journey would have ruined His life forever. For the rest of his life, after bearing the ring, Frodo could not be truly happy again. It truly wold have been easier to give up for he knew that even if he did succeed, the world would be as a forest after a fire. Frodo and Sam are the greatest characters in The Lord of the Rings!!!!!!

Excellent point, Elfchick! I could not have summed it up better.

Couldn't have summed it up better myself, Elfchick. I agree totally.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> But he does fall flat on his back and roll his eyes a lot ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's a reflex. Whenever there's danger he falls over. It's like all the women in the old movies who faint whenever they really should be running like heck!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> It's a reflex. Whenever there's danger he falls over. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> Too right, Rose.<P>Elfchick7, your synopsis of the hardships that Frodo undergoes is spot on. And that is what makes him such an outstanding character in the Books. But the way that he is portrayed in the films, well it makes you wonder how he could go through so much and still be around to talk about it. And it certainly makes me wonder how on earth he can credibly survive the further hardships that await him in RotK.<p>[ September 28, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

Lord of Angmar, <P>I happen to feel that Elvish Archer has a valid point. <P>You raise the following question: <I> Elvish Archer, have you read the books? </I> While I can not speak for Elvish Archer, I can speak for myself, and I am probably one of the older posters on this site. I was part of the "Frodo Lives" generation that went to college in the late sixties, and have re-read the books so many times that I can not even remember as well as Silm, HoMe, etc.<P>Let me first say this....I have obviously not seen PJ's RotK so I can not say in advance how I will respond to that. And overall I have enjoyed the movies and am very grateful that they were made.<P>But one of my frustrations has been this: throughout TTT and even Fellowship, Frodo was too often reduced to a one-dimensional victim, with other elements of his personality ironed out. This has been covered in many other threads. In Fellowship, the scene with the Barrow-wight is missing where Frodo rejects the impulse to disappear with the Ring and instead stays to rescue his friends as is the scene in the Pony where he gets up on the tabletop and shows some spunk by singing. His depiction at Weathertop against the Nazgul is much weaker than that portrayed in the book, to say nothing of the fact that he is carted off by Arwen like a piece of luggage. I could cite other examples in TTT -- the elimination of Frodo's serious conversations with Faramir and, worst of all, the zombielike scenes at the end of the movie where he saunters up to the Nazgul in a trance. <P>Were there times when Frodo was exhausted and tired in the book, with head bowed low? Absolutely. But there were also times when the light of an Elf-friend showed through his eyes. The intriguing thing about this character in the book is that at the same time as the power of evil is growing in one side of his fea, the capacity to show mercy and his increasing resolve are blossoming in the other side. I don't see these things in PJ's Frodo. I see a very frightened young hobbit lad who is in over his head. <P>I'm not saying it would have been easy to show such complexity in the limited time available in the movie. And there are commercial reasons why PJ's Frodo looks like a sixteen-year old lad, which also adds to his air of vulnerability. But I do think it is valid to question if PJ has done justice to this character and shown him in a one-sided mode. <P>sharon

I too have sometimes felt that some of the movie characters were a bit too youthful, but then figured it was to appeal to youth, who spend lots of money on movies, I guess?! I sure am glad they ditched the super young Aragorn at the last moment and got 40 something Vigo.

Gee whiz..Elven Archer, Frodo is being controlled by the Ring...it's taking over him and he can't stop it...obviously the movies weren't a good idea for people who have OBVIOUSLY not read the books..

Thank you for the welcome/verbal smackdown Lord of Angmar!<BR> As a matter of fact, I have read the books, many times. To steal a phrase from a friend of mine, "I was a fan, before it was a fad." <BR> However, as it has been pointed out in this forum, Frodo's character is a bit over-dramatized, almost to the point of unbeilivability.

Welcome, Elvish Archer and Nevlothiel!<P>I agree with a few things that've been said. One is that he's a rather... can't think of the word. But he reminds me a great deal of Zoolander, where he could only make one face, but gave it many different names (Blue Steel <3). Yes, Frodo's burden bothers him, yes, it pulls him down, but not that much, not all the time. PJ has done a lovely job of showing the ring's strength, but I don't think he's done a great job of showing <B>Frodo's</B> strength.

Hey, Nevlothiel...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Gee whiz..Elven Archer, Frodo is being controlled by the Ring...it's taking over him and he can't stop it...<I> obviously the movies weren't a good idea for people who have OBVIOUSLY not read the books.. </I> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>First, there is more than one side of this issue as I stated in my own post. There are those of us who feel Frodo is portrayed in a one-dimensional way by PJ, and others who would disagree. Well-argued positions and disagreement is part of what makes the Downs tick. <P>But it doesn't help anyone if posters start throwing around comments on someone's supposed background or lack of it in terms of LotR. Such personal attacks are simply out of place and often inaccurate. <P>If you'd like to disagree with my position (or that of Elven Archer's), that's great. Use your wits and knowledge to refute my ideas one-by-one and develop a counterpostion without flinging bricks.<P><B> Quickslash </B> - I agree with you. This is exactly what I was trying to say above.<P>sharon<p>[ September 28, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

I can certainly see your points, <B>Child</B> and <B>Elvish Archer</B>. (A wholehearted welcome to the Downs is in order for you, by the way! Enjoy being dead! ) Frodo's personality is indeed ironed out flat in many places throughout the movie, and the Henneth Annun/Osgiliath scenes were rather mangled for both Faramir and Frodo. I do find moments in the films where Frodo does show his strength, however quietly, mainly in the first film. In the scenes in Lothlorien and Amon Hen, in the Extended FOTR, Frodo's sense of isolation and then resolve is shown pretty well, and the scene at Galadriel's mirror is quite powerful. In fact, I saved a pic of Frodo from this scene with the title "The Frodo I know." That, and Frodo's interactions with Boromir at Amon Hen show his resolve, despite a great fear. I do think a lot of his power has been drained unfortunately, especially, as Sharon points out, with the omission of his full scenes at the Ford and the total exclusion of the Barrowdowns episode. The fun-loving aspect of his personality, I think is shown adequately at Bilbo's party and at the Green Dragon (although Merry and Pippin are obviously having MORE fun!). <P>In TTT, the beginning scenes, the "Taming of Smeagol" parts, I rather liked and thought the Frodo/Smeagol relationship was built up well. (One oddity I noted, though, was at the Black Gate, Smeagol lines out this alternative route, and it is still through Cirith Ungol and the lair of Shelob. I can't remember if he had intended this route at this point or not in the book...). I won't even go into the Faramir scenes. The mind reels to make sense of those! I hope the Extended TTT will help sort it out; until then, I beg off on this part. I will add that I always comment "pea soup time" when Frodo starts going out of his mind at the Nazgul at Osgiliath portion...I always expect his head to start spinning around! <P>Anyway, for those who think Elijah Wood too young for Frodo, I can see this for one point, simply for this reason--the introductions of the main four Hobbits were constricted into one time period. I suppose you'd either have to make them ALL older, or change Frodo's age at the party; thus we no longer have the differential ages between the 'younger' hobbits and Frodo. But, as for absolute age, even if it were done true to the book chronology, Elijah would have been appropriate, simply because, at 50, Frodo still looked like a hobbit just out of his 'tweens. If you take human/hobbit years as 21/33, then Elijah is almost exactly the right age...I would have preferred him playing it as a 50 year old personality, though, even with his young visage! It would have added that "downright odd" tang to Frodo that set him apart in the Shire. <P>Thanks again, <B>Elvish Archer</B> for allowing me yet another chance to spout off about Frodo--one of my favorite subjects! <P>Cheers,<BR>Lyta