Uhg- A terrible thought
 

Here's something that I thought of when I first read the Silmarillion (but never remembered to bring up on the forum). It's an interesting thought, but a tad unsettling.

Taken from the Silmarillion-
Is it just me, or did anyone else think "Morgoth is going to get Luthien pregnant"? Taking the most beautiful child of Eru and using her to sire offspring sounds like a "design more dark than any". Also, if this was Morgoth's intention it would then explain the attention he paid to her beauty and make the "evil lust" description really fit.

Well, now that I've said my piece, is there anyone who either agrees with this assessment or perhaps came to a different conclusion while reading?

(and if you dig up another thread on this topic please let me know)

Yes, I'd always assumed that's what Morgoth intended. That way he'd be able to sire a very powerful child that would make a very powerful subordinate (he'd hope). The creature would be some sort of depraved Vala/Maia/Elven mishmash.

And the worst part of all; this creature would spawn a new type of terror.

The everlasting and unsolvable debate of...

DO HALF-ELVEN BALROGS HAVE WINGS??!!!!!

Oh the Horror!!!

;)

That was the only idea I could come to when I read that he had lustful thoughts about her. But I didn't think they went any deeper than the perverse lust of a Vala like Morgoth. An evil offspring. *Shudders*

I too am in agreement however I don't think that he did it to try and create some new powerful being. More likely he was simply once again trying to suck the beauty and light out of Eru's creation. More often he perverted things out of malice and hate than to try to gain power from them. His most powerful servants the balrogs were not created, he corrupted the elves and turned them evil for the main purpose of destroying something beautiful rather than gain power from them. True the orcs did give him power but he had many creatures that were much more powerful than orcs on his side that were pretty much twisted and evil from the beggining. So yes I agree that he wanted to corrupt Luthien but not for a new powerful being.

That's very true, Lord Elrond: Morgoth always takes pleasure in warping and corrupting the purity of Eru's creation. However, my reading of the text above is that Morgoth's mind was simply filled with lustful thoughts (which incidentally are what prompt him to allow Lúthien to sing and dance for him), and that these lead to whatever 'dark design' he was pondering.

Bearing in mind that his lust comes first and foremost, he could be considering any number of horrible alternatives: he might simply be thinking about rape. On the other hand he might be considering that if he were to marry Lúthien it would torture Thingol, and possibly prompt him into a rash attack on Angband in which he and his army would be destroyed. Almost certainly Morgoth realised that any offspring of himself and Lúthien would be very powerful and a valuable asset for that reason alone. However, not only would any child of his and Lúthien's be a natural legal heir to the throne of Doriath, but also Morgoth himself, as Thingol's son-in-law, would become Thingol and Melian's heir apparent. This would leave him in an almost unassailable position for negotiating a surrender (the terms of which would be honoured on one side alone), and provide a lever for use on Thingol's people. It could also be used to goad and torment Thingol in the meantime, prompting him to rash action.

For Morgoth, this is a win-win situation. He can gratify his lust and in so doing create a situation that is to his advantage alone. Unfortunately for him, Lúthien perceives some of his thoughts and uses that knowledge to beguile him, the rest being 'history'.

You're right, Phantom: the idea of the best and brightest of the Firstborn being used as a concubine by the marrer of Arda himself is a horrible thought.

[ 1:26 PM December 04, 2003: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ]

This brings us to a rather interesting (and sick) question.

Does Morgoth's physical body have hormones and so forth that would give him that kind of gratification from the mere act itself?

For some reason, (and I don't know why) I always thought of Morgoth (since he was the Great Primeval Evil) as being either above or below such things. I never really thought of him as being interested in that sort of activity for its own sake. I assumed that there must be some other motivation involved.

However, I might be mistaken. We have the example of Melian who was similar in original nature to Morgoth and she obviously had a child (or we would not be having this discussion). It would be interesting to see what everyone else thinks of this.

However, reading over this post, I think I can say without fear of contradiction that this is as good of an example of a conversation-bomb that I have ever seen. It will be almost as interesting to see if anyone has the nerve to reply. ;)

Although I agree with the phantom, it is an unsettling thought...you just don't want to think of insanely evil dark lords like that. Ick! [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

As for what you said Kuruharan, the thought has crossed my mind(Hey, I'm a teenager, give me a break) about hormones and needs and stuff. My answer is that I think...you know what, I don't have an answer to that. It's mindboggling! Does anyone have any thoughts? I'm stumped.

[ 11:55 AM December 04, 2003: Message edited by: Ainaserkewen ]

I have never seen the need for any Valar children, as they are so 'immortal'. You could say that, if that is the case, then why would there be Elf children but they are not as powerful in their immortality as the Valar. (They are restricted to the Halls of Mandos when their bodies are slain)

Does anyone understand what I'm trying (and probably failing) to express? Of course, this does not account for Melian's child and Melian was mcuh closer to the Valar than to the Elves so it appears as if I'm clueless. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

(And yes, I think Melkor was getting something similar to 'those' thoughts too.) [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

I also always read that as referring to Morgoth wanting to make Lúthien pregnant, or at least having sexual thoughts about her.

Eomer wrote: No, they were not. After some time (sometime longer, sometimes shorter) they left Mandos to live again, in Valinor. As their life was the life of Arda, they could not leave it, as Men could (by dieing). Sitting in Mandos till the end would mean they effectually had left Arda. The only two exceptions I know of are Míriel, who refused to leave Mandos, and her son Fëanor, who was forbidden to leave Mandos.
An other exception is ofcourse Glorfindel, who after being released from Mandos and living a short time in Valinor was granted to go back (or was sent back) to Middle Earth, to assist Elrond against Sauron.


As to the Ainur's immortality vs the Elves' immortality: only the Ainur were indeed immortal. Elves were not mortal, but their life was (as said above) the life of Arda. While Arda lasted, they would live. They could be slain or die of grief, so, they were not immortal.
Also, Ainur who were slain in their bodily form, did not die as Men died, they could come back (as Sauron did a number of times). They could use too much of their inherent power, so that they could not rematerialise, nor effect much after being slain, see Saruman and Sauron at the end of the War of the Ring.

[ 1:51 PM December 04, 2003: Message edited by: Earendilyon ]

I also had quite forboding thoughts when I read that particular passage. The Dark-Lord-rapes-beautiful-maiden theme is prevalent in a lot of literature, and I was surprised it didn't show up in LotR/Silmarillion. I had to get over many shuddering fits after reading that part, though.

I don't think that Morgoth wanted to use Luthien as a sort of "breeder," as horribly perverse as that sounds. He probably wanted to corrupt her beauty, and watch her fade, since he derived a sort of perverse pleasure from the destruction/corruption of previously glorious beings.

That is probably because he himself was a previously glorious being who 'fell' and was eternally corrupted. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

I saw Morgoth's dark thoughts toward Luthien in the same way as Finwe did, however I suppose it is entirely possible that he did in fact mean in his mind for her to bear him a child. As Squatter pointed out, it would be extremely advantageous to his overall scheme for the dominion of Middle Earth, and it would also satisfy any evil lust he may have had for the daughter of Melian. I shudder to think of such an occurrence, though it would certainly make for a horrifyingly gripping read. The offspring of Morgoth and Luthien would truly be a terrible thing to behold, and it would certainly make for a more intense psychological study than Tolkien would probably have cared to delve into (the child of the most beautiful and the most wicked beings ever would certainly have a great deal of inner turmoil to deal with).

To fan these flames, here's a passage from the Lay of Leithian:
Morgoth's intentions are clearer still in this extract, as is Lúthien's cunning manipulation; although poor Beren, hiding beneath Morgoth's throne, must be in a torment all the while.

[ 7:52 PM December 04, 2003: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ]

That would (from Morgoth's point of view) be an excellent idea. Two birds with one stone- defile something beautiful (Luthien) and draw out your protected enemy (Thingol).

I tried to imagine myself in Thingol's head for a while and came to the conclusion that he would pull a Fingolfin (jump on a horse and ride to Angband practically on fire with rage). This would certainly be to Morgoth's advantage.
I never had in mind the actual offspring that would be produced from the union. I share your view and thought that he was going to plant his evil seed in Luthien just to be cruel and mar something beautiful. If being forced to carry the offspring of Morgoth doesn't mar you then what would?

Just the thought of Eru's most beautiful child being polluted in such a way makes me shiver in horror and clench my fists in anger!

(and making his enemies feel this way would give Morgoth much pleasure)
Hmm... never really thought about it. I don't mean to be off color, but when the Valar assumed the forms the children of Eru, did they have male and female genitals (also reproductive hormones)? They obviously would not be necessary if they weren't reproducing, but if Morgoth were to impregnate Luthien he would...well...need certain equipment. Was it already present or would he have to create a reproductive system on the spot (since he had never needed one before)?

Well, I think that's enough on that.
No kidding! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] But it relates to the topic, so I've got no problem with it.

Actually, instead of killing the thread, posts have started breeding like rabbits.

I'm sorry...I'm sorry...I just couldn't resist.

Some of the language in this passage is certainly a bit sensual, as if Morgoth was enjoying it for its own sake.

I'd never really given it much thought before (fancy that!)

This was after the time that Morgoth could no longer change his physical form so it must be supposed that he was previously "armed and ready." As much as I hate to admit it, I think that this tends to support the view that the Valar were also similarly endowed when they took physical form.

However, I think that there is a fundamental difference to be considered between the Valar and Morgoth. The Valar remained primarily spiritual beings while Morgoth became a physical being, trapped in his body. I think that it is a safe assumption that the Valar's bodies were different in nature, and probably in substance, from physical beings. This being the case, they were likely not subject to what we might term biological processes.

I would suggest that the Valar appearing in a physical form could actually be the Valar playing a sort of visual "trick." The spiritual Valar is acting directly on the eyes of the incarnate viewer to cause the incarnate to "see" a physical representation of the Vala, but no such physical manifestation would actually exist.

However, that is clearly not what was happening in Morgoth's case, so my interesting little theory can probably be discarded.

Sorry. That was my attempt to bring this discussion to a more intellectual level. ;)

I does have some relationship to the discussion at hand. Since Morgoth was fully incarnate, he might have become subject to his biological processes, and thus had hormones and so forth. This would also mean that he had to eat and go to the bathroom. Gandalf and the other Istari were subject to similar requirements (at least regarding eating and one presumes the other).

Perhaps part of becoming trapped in a body would indeed cause Morgoth to feel (for lack of a better way of expressing it) physical lust.

In Tolkien's earlier conception the Valar could mate and produce offspring - they were much more like, say, the Olympians. Second-generation members included Fionwe/Eonwe, sonof Varda and Manwe, and Orome was the son of Aule and Yavanna. In this scheme Melkor/Morgoth actually raped the sun-maiden Arie, Fionwe's beloved. The Morgoth/Luthien moment always strikes me as a sort of last echo of this original conception.

Adding on to Lost One's post, remember that Lúthien's mother was an Ainu, and evidently Melian was "properly equipped". [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Tolkien makes another point about Morgoth, related to the earlier conception in which Arien was the object of his lust (the observation probably applies to the later conception of the Lúthien/Morgoth scene as well).

So Morgoth could not have had children with Lúthien--not because he was a Vala, but because was evil to the point of being unable to perform any creative or procreative act.

Perhaps Tolkien wanted to keep the theme of Morgoth being the fallen Vala who had to experience everything about the fana that he took. His rape of Arie was probably done with the same intentions as his lust for Luthien. They were both high, beautiful, and powerful, and "defeating" a creature such as that would have given him pleasure indeed.

I'm assuming that if Fingolfin and Thorondor could wound Morgoth's body, then he was probably physically "sound," to put it delicately. I can't see why he'd initially take on that "part" of the body, but he probably had his own, perverse, twisted, lunatic reasons.

I, too, believe that it is simply in his twisted desire for inflicting pain that Morgoth has these "feelings". You all can imagine (I hope none of you know first-hand) what rape can do to a woman of this day and age... Rape would utterly destroy a being of such delicate and perfect beauty as Luthien- especially since she was especially valuable to her family as an heir, and probably a bit sheltered as to "how the world works". The shock and trauma that would be inflicted upon her (she'd probably kill herself) would be by far enough justification for Morgoth. I mean, he'd likely do that to any woman he thought it would destroy (especially of Elf-kind), but to the daughter of an enemy? Oh, by all means! What's the downside in this?

Lindril (whoa, ranting) Arvilya

this kind of reminds me of Grima lusting after Eowyn, only about 3000 prior.

I knew Morgoth was low, but when I read the part about his thoughts and plans for Luthien, I nearly became sick. I think the modern equivalent to Morgoth would be a person who would commit that act just to see a person destroyed. They care little for the "pleasure", all they want is to see suffering. And, as stated in earlier posts, he would also like to draw Thingol out of his kingdom. Granted, Luthien was probably the jewel of his heart, but any father who finds out that his daughter was raped would hit the ceiling. He probably would "pull a Fingolfin" with similar results. Ok, now I'm done with my little rant.

I never really envisioned Morgorth being 50ft tall or indeed anywhere near it. Once you reach those sorts of heights it would make physical combat with a creature 7 foot tall implausible. I mean the reach alone he would have plus the size of the mace a 50ft tall creature would carry.
I felt him to be more like Balrog sized (well as I see them anyway) and about 14ft tall.

Maybe he had no choice. Perhaps it just went hand in hand with being physically incarnate, just like the need to eat, sleep etc.

But I think that Morgoth's lustful intentions towards Luthien were less to do with any physical attraction or desire for physical gratification, and much more to do with a desire physically to dominate, as is the case with rapists generally. And this would, I suppose, have represented in a microcosm his desire to dominate and defile the entirety of the Elven peoples in Beleriand.

As others have pointed out, had he succeeded in giving vent to his lustful desires, he would have drawn out Thingol and his kindred, and no doubt many other Elves besides. So, by that one act of domination and defilement, he could well have achieved his wider ambitions in this regard.

Lucky that Luthien was wise to him, eh.

[ 9:10 AM December 05, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

Of course she was wise to him! Thankfully with the Elves, beauty and wisdom often came hand in hand. Luthien was probably used to dealing with domineering people (*coughcoughThingolcoughcough*) and she could guess Morgoth's intentions as soon as she saw him. I'm sure that she had foreseen some encounter like that when she made that enchanted cloak, since, like most of the mighty Elves, she had some degree of foresight.

Yes, we should all be very glad that Luthien had enough common sense to realize what Morgoth was up to! If she hadn't, who knows, Luthien may have ended up with a (fairly) similar fate to Nienor, Morgoth may have never been defeated, there would have been no Eärendil, no kings of Numenor, no Gondor and Arnor. Basicly, nothing at all would be the same in Arda. And think how this would have all devastated poor Beren!

The language in Lay of Leithian is more than a "bit" sensual.

As she begins to draw him in with her charm, Morgoth takes notice of her body ("slender limb and body frail...") and clearly threatens it with some sort of physical torture.

He tells her that he can, actually, be gentle for her sake.

His "labours are long and hard."

She is "soft cool tissue..."

And "slake" means to "relieve or to satisfy with or as if with a refreshing drink."

Yikes.

Somehow I think that all that Dark-Lording bit somewhat addled Morgoth's brains. He really underestimated the power of the Elves, and probably thought they just danced about under trees. I really think he got his comeuppance.

Today I was reading a little HoME (Morgoth's Ring Part Three, Second Phase in the section entitled Laws and Customs Among the Eldar) and I spotted something of relevance-
Since the situations are comparable, it leads me to believe that if Morgoth or any of his minions attempted to force themselves on Luthien her spirit would leave her body (meaning that Morgoth and friends would have to settle for necrophilia).

Morgoth can't have offspring said Tolkien. Apparently neitehr could the other evil maia, like Sauron and Balrogs...(I think)...but maybe they could, since Ungoliant could. But Morgoth definately coudln't.

In fact, Tolkien says that when Morgoth raped Arian (the Ainur of the Sun), it was impossible for him to "beget fiery offspring"...it was done to shame and traumatise her...hence why she, like Elves in the above quote, couldn't handle living in her body any more. Bastard. :'(

So it seems that he ahd no plan for little half-Elf kiddies...he just wanted to satiate his lust with her. Eeeeew. :'(

You took the words right out of my mouth, Phantom. There is no way that Lúthien would let Morgoth do anything to her more than that frightening verbal cruelty. Especially because of the Beren factor.

I for one am happy that it didn't show up. There is, of course, the Morgoth/Arien occurrence, but just reading Morgoth's dialogue in the Lay is quite bad enough.

Poor Beren? What about poor Lúthien!?!

I do think that intentions of destruction and defilement in general are more likely those that Morgoth had, but one can never know what his limits of just doing evil things were.

I thought that he simply intended to have his wicked way with her and then keep her as a thrall. Maybe use her as a bargaining tool to make Thingol reveal Doriath so he could destroy it. However, this new revelation sheds a whole new light on the matter [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I suppose that he could have used Luthien as a bargaining tool, but she would have already left her body by then. Also, wouldn't Melian figure something out? After all, Elven mothers were very close to their children and since Melian was the only Maia who became a mother, I think the same holds for her. She would have probably realized that Luthien was in mortal danger, and at least would have tried to counsel Thingol not to do anything rash. Of course, she did that when he had the Silmaril, and we all know how THAT turned out.

When I first read the Silmarilion and the Lay of Leithian, I was young and never got any idea of that. Ahhhh, ignorance [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Now, When I read them, the whole dinamic comes upon me and it is extremely disturbing.

I believe that once Morgoth became trapped in his physical form, all attributes to a physical form came along with it (including certain body parts and *cough* feelings that accompanied those parts). I don't believe that Morgoth had any intention or even thought of being a child.

I think there was a possibility of two situations that cuased his lust, or a combination of both.

1) The immense beauty of Luthien caused those *ahem* feelings to whell up inside of him and caused him to . . . (insert favorite word(s) here).

2) The immense evilness (is that even a word?) and cruelty of Morgoth caused him to want to harm Luthien in the worst way possible, and what better way than to deflower the daughter of one of your greatest enemies, who is also a formidible danger herself?

This is definately a topic open to emmense dbate as to what truly was going on, but I am certain that we are all sure that the scene is definately very disturbing.

This is somewhat of a moot/hypothetical point, since the quite from Morgoth's Ring which Angry Hill Troll provided clearly states that Morgoth was not able to reproduce, but:

I'm a bit surprised by the early sentiment that the offspring of Morgoth/Luthien would be a terrible monster and that it would automatically be a "win-win" situation for Morgoth. Evil does not create (which is why Morgoth can't reproduce...) so the conception of a child falls under the good, creative nature of Eru. Hence, by the very nature of being created, the child would have a fresh start. I also don't see why it should have a bad physical form, as whatever genes it got from its daddy would be good ol' Maiar genes. The child born to Luthien would have the attributes of a powerful Maia, but who says it would inherit Morgoth's uber-evilness? (But, of course, this is only if Morgoth still had that least bit of Eru-inherited goodness nescessary to create a child, which he didn't.) Basically, to use a real life analogy, a child conceived in rape is not an evil thing, it is a human just like any other. Likewise, I see no reason why the offspring of Morgoth would inherit his evilness. I would think it would be a Maia/Elf just like any other. Now, he could raise it up to follow in his ways, but Luthien might have a thing or two to say about that, wouldn't she? Sure, it's a moot point because Morgoth was SO evil he lost the ability to create, but hey, this whole thread is based around a moot point, so I present my case. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] Am I the only one who feels strong sympathy for the idea of this innocent child who would have one heck of a lousy father and be reviled by his mother's side of the family?

Gosh I guess I never fully understood that passage, but it is understandable none the less. That is great that Morgoth did not have the ability to reproduce, but it is terrible what he was thinking about doing. But yes, if he did what he was thinking about doing it would most definitely be in his favor, but at least Luthien had the ability in a way to see that Morgoth would try to do this so that she could advoid it.

This is a very interesting thread, but yes it is a very iffy topic [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

Diamond, I understand and agree to your point. Melkor was evil by choice, not by birth; he was the greatest Ainur, and Manwe's brother in the thought of Iluvatar, so nothing wrong with his genes there. His wickedness arose from succombing to his very powerful desire to rule others and be almighty. But if he hadn't sucombed, he'd be the greatest of the Ainur, right up there with Manwe. So there's no reason why the offspring of him and Luthien (herself half Maia) would be inherently evil. He would most probably be very powerful, and maybe a worthy opponent of his father. But from here on it's just speculation.

We might get another Maeglin/Eol situation, which would be absolutely disastrous for Doriath. Maeglin's betrayal was bad enough, and he was just an Elf! Imagine what the rampaging of a half-Elf/half-Maia would do!

I agree that if a child was possible it would not necessarily be evil. HE/she would have had some kind of internal good/evil conflict!

On morgoth's thoughts, rape was most likely what he had in mind. Another kind of torture probably would not have been as effective (Thingol would have gone off on Morgoth regardless.) Setting aside the fact that Luthien would have "died" if Morgoth tried anything, simply violating her would be enough to provoke a response from Thingol. Luthien would have been so humiated/broken/sick that I can't imagine any thing else for her spirit to do than depart. Morgoth also has that power obsession that characterizes rapists. The desires that Morgoth had toward Luthien seem to be the culmination of his evilness, his desire to corrupt something so pure.

I must point out that there would appear to be a big problem in the idea that "evil cannot create." Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't dragons originally created by Morgoth? Or were they just another example of something that was corrupted?

Oh, goodie! Dragons again!
 

Ah, wouldn't we like to know.

Everyone agrees that Dragons were originally beasts of some sort that Morgoth corrupted.

The controversy starts over "how" and "with what" Morgoth corrupted them.

The correct view, which I articulate so astonishingly well, is that Morgoth caused rebellious Ainu spirits to possess the bodies of the Dragons. Others, for some reason, will not accept this great truth and argue (among other things) that Dragons were either smart to begin with or had lesser spirits inhabit them.

However, this issue has already been throughly mauled on many a doleful field of conflict.

I´ve never thought it like that... disgusting. Well I think that it shouldn´t be taken so literally; sounds a bit strange, that Morgoth would have wanted to create some kind of a monster or have a son or something. It seems to me more probable that he just wanted to ruin everything beautiful.