the pride of feanor
 

HEy! awesome sight. I'm new to the sight. but a lifelong resident of middle-earth.
Heres a question. Had Feanor relented and broke the silmarils For the healing of the trees.Would this have doomed the coming of man? My thinking Is this would have stalled the Noldorins urge to chase Melkor, therefore man would be left without the help of the high elves. The dark one in my opinion would have twisted all of humanity to the very last before the valar would give thought.

That's an interesting thought turgon (welcome to the Downs by the way :) ). I get the feeling that mankind may have fallen further and faster, but didn't they need the aid of the Valar in the end regardless? As for Feanor, I think there was not too much of a risk of him ever breaking his lovely jewels.

Thanks for the welcome Eomer
 

I still am always struck on how pivotal the sons of finwe are to the unfolding of the song of the ainur and the shaping of arda. While it's true The aid of the valar was a necessary event. I was just pondering that if the silmaril was given for the healing of the trees and feanoro's great spirit was quenched. It follows the sun and moon would not have been created as quickly. and I believe the valar would have turned towards healing the damage the passage of melkor and ungoliant caused. Not the least of which being the rifts amongst the elves. This I think would pave the way for Melkor to have enthralled all the lands without. and men would never gaze upon, or have the wisdom," of those who were from the undying land and had seen the light of the trees." effectively splitting arda and the final battle for the shaping and mastery of arda would have come much quicker. bringing an end to the song with all of man on the side of Morgoth.

So you think the fight against Melkor would have been much shorter and far less glorious or tragic? I can see that. An interesting point you raise is what would have become of Feanor if the jewels had been broken. Would he have been less fiery, less purposeful in that event?

<------ the jewel of Fëanor
 

Well Fëanor said that if the silmarils were broken he would die, first of all the Eldar in Aman. That would be a great loss because Fëanor is my favorite Elf. But maybe he was speaking in hyperbole. Maybe he would't necessarily die if the silmarils were broken. What do you all think?

Wellmeant
 

"not the First" so said mandos. Personally I think it was hyperbole. He would have been chastened in spirit. and perhaps forged to a higher sheen. But my original thought was that the ages beyond the third would never have taken place. The music of the ainur would have been cut short on a foul note had feanor been complacent. and would have served melkor ultimately buy complying to the valar. this would have Allowed morgoth the time to subjugate the world to his will while the valar tarry beyond the boundaries of the mortal world. Melian and Thingol would be overwhelmed thus no beren and luthien no Tuor and no Aragorn.
Fingolfin perhaps would have been emboldend but he would not circumvent the will of manwe as he percieved it. emphasis on percieve. (fingolfin my fav).
Please forgive misspelling :eek:

I think so... and I think that he would've given up the sils if his daddy wasn't killed by Morgy, by the way. :D

But why would he die if the jewels were broken?

I don't think he would have physically. and thats a good point by yavanna. But his spirit would have. which I think would have served Melkor much more then anything else.

The breaking was kinda a moot point because even as Feanor spoke, his father was being slain and the Silmarilli stolen by Morgoth. Obviously, though, Feanor's decision had a great impact on his next big decision...

I feel certain that if the Noldor had stayed home instead of chasing Morgoth and the Silmarils, the Sindar and the Edain would not have thus been doomed. I don't believe the Valar would neglect them and leave them to the tyranny and oppression of the Great Enemy, and even if they did, Eru Iluvatar certainly would not.

This all is entwined with the Great Music. In Eru's plan, even evil would ultimately work for good. We can be sure that it was not his plan for the Noldor to rebel against the Valar and go back to Middle-earth, but he still used it for good, as they began the War of the Great Jewels against Morgoth, which preserved the lives of the Sindar and the Edain. We can be equally certain that if the Noldor had not left Valinor, everything would still have worked out all right (as all right as it can be, anyway) in the end.

As a Catholic, Tolkien was a strong believer in the sovereignty of God, and this definitely carries over in The Silmarillion. His God is a flexible one, whose plans are ultimately disrupted by the shortcomings of his creatures. This is the context in which we must view the rebellion of the Noldor.

Certainly uncertain
 

Really intriguing post Turgon, and welcome too.

Elladan:I do not know how you can be so absolutely certain given that:

a) The Valar displayed great naiveity when dealing with Melkor/Morgoth - they seemed to lack the ability to comprehend the nature and reality of his evil purpose. Even after he masterminded the destruction of the Trees, the rape of the Silmarils and the abhorrent slaying of Finwe in their Holy Realm, they were desperately inactive in their response. Surely the time for War of Wrath was before Morgoth had a chance to return entrenched to his fortress dungeon, rebuild his dark legions and ruin so many more innocents in the meantime?

b) Beleriand was about to fall anyway just before the timely and unlooked for return of the Noldo and their great victory at the Battle-under-Stars.

c) The only Valar who had any direct dealings with Men (before Tuors meeting with Ulmo on the shores of Nevrast) was Morgoth, and according to HoME this brought about their first - and in some cases permanent - fall.

d) The supposition that even if the Valar deserted Men, Eru would not, is based purely on faith. Everything came forth from Eru, good and evil besides, so relying purely on the goodwill of an unfathomable entity whose essense clearly contains both light and dark seems a bit like wishful thinking.

e) Tolkien was a Catholic but he stated time and again that he hated allegory and direct comparrisons between his Legendarium and his real world faith. So to say that the only way to view the rebellion of the Noldor is within the context of our worlds Catholicism seems seriously open to debate.

Maybe I'm too cynical today and I'm sorry if this seems a bit contentious Elladan, its just that I cant remotely presume let alone be certain that: "if the Noldor had not left Valinor, everything would still have worked out all right (as all right as it can be, anyway) in the end."

Men came when the sun rose... the sun was born because the trees died... so if Feanor used his sils to keep the trees alive then there would be no men, right?

It seems to me that the trees were supposed to die, and Feanor's refusal to wear his jewels to the feast (which allowed Morgoth to steal them and take them out of reach) ensured that the trees would die and that men would soon awaken.
I agree.
Why?

When Feanor arrived in Beleriand it was days (maybe hours) away from being conquered. There were two safe places left, with Cirdan and with Thingol- and Cirdan was just about finished when the orcs attacking him were drawn off by Feanor and his sons.

And what chance did Doriath, unaided, have against Morgoth, Sauron, the Balrogs, and their armies of orcs?

And once Doriath is gone, what's left? Roaming dark-elves with crap weapons? I don't think they'd last long. Only the dwarves in their caves would survive, but Morgoth would likely go after them as soon as he was able.
We can be sure? Here's what Tolkien said-
It appears that is was the best plan for the Noldor to chase Morgoth.
Why? The Valar don't have a good track record when it comes to dealing with Morgoth. This was what Tolkien said about the first time Melkor was captured by the Valar-
As you can see, the Valar have a history of dragging their feet. All of Middle-Earth probably would've been under Morgoth's foot by the time they decided to do something. Don't put so much faith in the Valar and Manwe. Tolkien said this about Manwe-
Hee hee. If you want to put absolute faith in someone who has "weakness in dealing with difficult and perilous situations", then go ahead, but don't expect me to agree. :p

Even if Feanor did agree that the jewels should be broken for the healing of the trees, it is possible that the Noldor would have gone after Melkor for the reason that he had killed their king Finwe.
If the Noldor did not go and follow Morgoth, I think the Valar would have done something in order to save the Sindar and men. One of their reasons for not intervening earlier was that they wanted to punish the noldor for their rebellion and arrogance that they could overcome a valar. Valinor wouldn't have been hidden against any return from middle earth, and so the Teleri, probably under Cirdan could have sent a ship asking for help which they would have given.

voralphion
 

I am pulling from memory and not the book so i ask forgiveness but i don't remember the noldor wishing to overcome the valar before the unjust slaying of finwe or the trees. The pride of feanoro was the chord of the song of ainur

When I said overcome a valar, I meant Morgoth. I think in the doom of Mandos spoken to them as they were leaving, it mentions that they cannot overcome any of the valar in Arda, and it was arrogance to think they could.

Morgy would like to take a moment to say that she had absolutle nothing to do with it, it was all Melkie's fault and that he relinquished that nickname to her after she offered her minionship to him after which he promtly got stuck with the nick 'Melkie'.

Sorry...my brain tends to take over sometimes...

And I, too, think he may have given up the Silmarilli had it not been for the Death of Finwe.

Of course, he didn't really have a choice in the matter as ol' Melkie had already run off with the Sparklies by this point so I guess it's moot, eh?

Moot? perhaps..yet it's when the wings of fantasy grasp my fallible mind I almost always find myself drifting across the timescape to the edges of valinor. floating thru the airs above the ocean I see the mingling lights of the trees just over the mountains as they fade a final time; the stars are enhanced where there was once light of the blessed realm as a mighty shadow of darkness passes to my right... woops sorry, lost myself.
Seriously, what I have been wondering in relation to Finwe and kiddies is how pivotal they were/are to the song of the Ainur.--

"But Iluvatar sat and hearkened until it seemed that about his throne there was a raging storm, as dark waters that made war one upon another in an endless wrath that would not be assuaged.
Then Iluvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that he smiled; and he lifted up his left hand, and a new theme began amid the storm, like and yet unlike to the former theme, and it gathered power and had new beauty. But the discord of Melkor rose in uproar and contended with it, and again there was a war of sound, until many of the Ainur were dismayed and sang no longer, and Melkor had the mastery."...Ainulindale

Was the second theme of Iluvater the elves, specifically Feanor. In laymens terms was Feanor the lead guitar for Iluvater. :D

Heck, no! He was on the Drums. Melkie was on lead Guitar and started on an impromtu solo just when the Theme of the Elves started.

*bets it was an electric guitar*

Maybe it would destroy Men,but I personaly think that Valar would still chase Morgoth,because he was the greatest threat to them and to everything they created,so Men would get help.Of course,there still would be many victims,but I think Feanor would not die.