The Three Elven Rings
 

I've been thinking about the 3 elven rings...if Sauron didn't have a hand in their making why did the rings lose their power with the destruction of the One ring? That doesn't make sense to me. I would think that since Sauron didn't make them and had nothing to do with making them why would the destruction of the master ring bring the destruction of the other rings? The only thing I can think of is because Sauron instructed the elves in their craft of making all of the rings that the others can be destroyed, or that because he crafted the One to master all other rings their fate was tied to his, but then this doesn't really make sense to me either. Any thoughts?

My guess is that your second guess is probably closer to the truth out of the two. The One Ring was the master Ring; it controlled the others and could bring them together to the person who held it- in this case, Sauron.

Even though Celebrimbor forged the Three Rings without any direct aid from Sauron (apart from the lore and crafts Sauron taught him), the One Ring still controlled the Elven Rings and all the other Great Rings (the Nine and the Seven). Sauron placed a lot of his own power into the One Ring in order to be dominate the other Rings. Therefore, when he is power is dissipated, so too would the power of all the other Rings, including the three. Let me give you a basic example- if something happens to your local electricity generator, then there's no power to light up the lightbulbs.

Thus, the Three Rings - along with the rest of the Great Rings - really became tied to the power of the One and once that source was gone, well, so was their power also. This leads to the question of why then could the Elves use the Rings without being detected while the One was still in existence? Well, two reasons-

a) Sauron didn't possess the One Ring at that time, so he couldn't 'bind' all the Rings to his power. Remember, as soon as Sauron spoke the words inscripted on the Ring in the Sammath Naur that Celebrimbor was aware of his plans and took off the Rings immediately.

b) Frodo, Gollum, Isildur and Bilbo didn't try to find the Three Rings and didn't have the power to, albeit that the Ring gave Frodo the 'power' to see Galadriel's Ring in Lothlorien.

Anyway, I'm diverging, so I'll leave you with a quote that doesn't really explain much, but is still interesting, coming from one of the Wise-

In the end, that's what happened.

That's kind of what I thought. It would have been nice, however, if the elven rings had kept their power. It saddens me that the elves left Middle Earth. Without them the magic of Middle Earth is gone.

I think that it was extremely unselfish of them to aid the fellowship as they did knowing that the destruction of the ring could/would bring about the destruction of all that they had known.

Well, for them, it was a choice between Sauron's dominion or the loss of the Elven powers. I think anybody'd choose the second option. :)

I am just a little confused...are you saying that Sauron had nothing to do with the making of the Rings of Power, or that he did by instructing them in their craft? I sounds like you are saying both. I am missing something here. Please help me understand what you are saying.

Following are a couple of quotes from The Silmarillion:


It was Sauron's teaching that enabled the elves to craft the Rings of Power. The Three Rings crafted by Celebrimor alone were only able to be made because Sauron shared his superior knowledge. Therefore, he did have a part in their making, although not in a physical, hands-on manner.

Wonderfully explained Fingolfin, also maybe a key in hiding the Three Elven rings is their secrecy. While on their bearers hands the rings were invisible (except to the One ringbearer), then when the one is destroyed, you can spot the 3 rings on their fingers, showing their loss of power.

Besides the invisibility, Aragorn warns Frodo not to speak about the Elven rings. So the Elves were able to keep them a secret, of course they had to.

This has confused me as well, and the explanation I came up with was similar. But, important is the fact that Sauron taught the Elves how to make their Rings! Maybe he knew they'd try to make their own, maybe he didn't. I haven't read that many passages on this subject -- most of my knowledge is second-hand. However, it seems to me that, even while he was teaching the Elves this craft, he would know that there was at least the possibilty one of them would do something like this. And, call Sauron a lot of things, but dumb he ain't. If this thougth had crossed his mind, he probably would've done something about it. So, it's possible that he might, might, have taught the Elves to make Rings of Power a specific way, with a fall-safe installed that anything they made using his methods would automatically be tied into any Master Ring(s) he might make in the future. Just a thought!

The thing is, Sauron forged the One Ring after the Three were forged. And after the Nine and the Seven, for that matter. He had already ideas for domination through instructing the Elves in this craft and his plans came to fulfilment when he made the One Ring in Orodruin.

The whole reason for Sauron instructing Celebrimbor and the other Elven-smiths was so that he could betray them and rule all the Free Peoples of Middle-Earth through the One Ring; he didn't teach the Elves out of the kindness of his heart.

An interesting idea, but I don't think it matters in which particular way he taught the Elves to make the Rings, because either way he would rule them all through the Great Ring- that was his fail-safe. The One Ring is how he bound all the Great Rings to his power. Sauron had a hand in actually forging the Nine and the Seven Rings, yet he didn't ever touch the Three, but they were still bound to the One. This brings up the question; what if the Elves made more Rings to govern their race after the One was forged?

However, I'm straying off topic here, so I'll repeat my answer to the original question posed by Alchiesel that once the power of the One Ring was destroyed, the power that the Three Rings possessed through their domination by the One would also be lost.

Yeah, good point. I wonder if the One Ring controlled all Rings of Power in general, or just the ones he and the Elves made? Moot point, because no one else made any, I know, but an interesting thought nonetheless.

What I'm wondering, though, is what would happen if the Elves made another Three after Sauron's complete destruction. Would they be able to regain what was lost when the Three lost their power? They probably wouldn't have done that, though, even if they thought of it, and even if any Elf still lived that knew how, afraid that another Sauron would come along and just make another One.

I understand it as this, Sauron taught the elves to make the rings in a certain way to ensure that the One ring would have domination over all the rings that were made. That makes sense to me. I didn't think of that before.

I think that any ring made after the crafting of the One Ring would still be under the dominion of the One Ring. Sauron had a rightful claim on all the elven-rings because his craft-lore was used in their making.

I can't find any 'defense' against Sauron for their full ownership of the rings except for hiding them and not openly using them when Sauron held the One Ring. Apparently, the elves understood the concept of copyright laws and patents. :) So as long as Sauron existed, any ring made would fall under his dominion.

Now, any rings made after Sauron's destruction...I don't think that any of the elves left in ME held the knowledge of ring-making. An interesting thought!

When Sauron created the One Ring, its power became tied together with the rings it controlled, regardless of who created them.
Actually I think Saruman made a ring of his own.
So the question is, was Saruman's ring under the power of the One? I don't think so, I think that Sauron bound all the rings to his when he created it rather than giving the Ring the power to bind all rings made by the methods that he taught the Elves.

Also, Saruman's ring didn't appear to have any power, seemed as if it was a failed attempt of creating what Sauron created. So, even if the One Ring did have control over Sarumans, it wouldn't have really mattered.

Wrong Boromir. Saruman's Ring enabled him to breed an enhanced version of orcs - the Urukhai.
Did he really forge the One after knowing the existance of the Three? I doubt it. Didn't Celebrimbor forge the Three in secret, & Sauron even left before they could be completed.
I don't think that the Elves would be capable of making another Three (even if Celebrimbor had been alive). These things are like the Silmarills. You can only make them once, but you can never make their like again, just like how Feanor feels about his Silmarills. It would be nice though if it were possible for the Elves. Such a sad fate for them.

Could you please show me the text behind this, if you don't mind.

It's been a while since I've read the books so I wouldn't be able to find it but I'm pretty sure it exist. I wouldn't make it up. Saruman has long studied the lore of the ring-making of Sauron. He was also envious of Gandalf for instead of him, Gandalf was entrusted the guardianship of Narya, the ring of fire. Saruman is also a maia of Aule, so this wouldn't come as a surprise to me. With his own version of a home-made ring, he was able to muster an army of Urukhai, orcs who can travel at great speed & are not hindered by day light, not like your ordinary morgoth orcs. But then again, I cannot supply with a quote so you believe it or not, though I highly doubt Saurman's ring is nothing more than an ornament.

I think you are just basing this off pure speculation.
Just because he studied it for many years doesn't mean he totally figured it out.
It's not even known whether Saruman mixed orcs and men to get the uruk-hai, it's assumed and probably the likely choice, but it's not certain. So, I doubt whether there's any mention of Saruman's ring inabling him to create the race. Also, with the ornament comment, Saruman was from Aule, like Sauron, both naturally being greedy.

As I've said, you can choose to believe what you want since I don't have any quotes at my disposal. I knew very well that Saruman was from the house of Aule, which is why I said that this wouldn't be impossible for Saruman to replicate, even of a lesser measure, the might of the great rings. Remember when Gandalf saw Saurman's clothes changing color... & then he spotted the ring. He wouldn't have forged a ring just for vanity's sake now would he?

I'm inclined to agree with Boromir here. As far as I know, Saruman's ring was only mentioned once in the whole entire story and that was when Gandalf spoke about their encounter to the Council of Elrond. Gorthaur, you have overlooked the fact that Sauron was the one who created the Uruk-hai; Saruman just experimented. Besides, if the ring was such a big factor in the story as you suggest, I'm sure Tolkien would have mentioned it more than once. To my mind, the Ring was more of an example of Saruman's former wisdom being replaced by arrogance and his attempt to copy Sauron in the hope of sharing some of his power.

Saruman deeply studied the lore of the Great Rings, but whether this was enough for him to actually replicate the power of a Great Ring is doubtful. I mean, even the grandson of the greatest Elf-smith ever probably couldn't have forged the Great Rings with such potency as they contain without Sauron's instruction.

As Boro said, it is not entirely known about the origin of the Uruk-hai, though it is likely there was cross-breeding between Men and Orcs. This is supported by a quote said by Gandalf somewhere in LotR, as well as by a discussion between Pippin and Aragorn in Isengard.

I'm not saying it's impossible, since Tolkien never says that the ring has no use, it's not impossible that the ring had powers. I'm just saying how it's unlikely.

1- The ring has no use for Saruman in the Shire.

2- as Fingolfin says it appears to just be Saruman's attempt to be like "Sauron."

3- the claim "Why would Saruman keep it if it had no use?" is weak, since Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf, all kept their rings after they lost their power.

With that being said, it's still not impossible, the ring could have had some use for Saruman. Word of advice for future posts, don't be so quick to jump to say someone's wrong if you don't have anything to back it up.

I agree w/Boro - I havent found any evidence that Saruman's ring was used in breeding UrukHai or anything else.

On Sauron's influence on the 3 - well from a technical point of view - if you have a blueprint of something (a building - software - anything) you dont need to be the creator to have an influence or impact on it. Now, if you had any hand at all in writing the blueprint - you have all sorts of ways to control or destroy or influence the product at any time. Thats how i see it anyways. :smokin:

Ah yes, Boromir, I apologize for that rashness, but as you've said... the possibilities are open. I would seriously doubt that his ring sat idle upon his finger, & yes, the bearer of the three kept their rings even when they were shorn of their powers yet when Gandalf discovered this, the One Ring still existed. I didn't know Sauron invented the Uruk-hai. Can you give me some quotes on that b'coz IF I remember correctly, Sauron's orcs could not travel by daylight. He had to create phantom stormclouds just to ease their passage towards Minas Tirith.
As for the topic, didn't Sauron discovered the existence of three only after he laid Eregion to waste... because Celebrimbor, as was said, made the three in secret & not even Sauron knew, but perhaps the above analogy is sufficient enough.

Re: forging Rings in the Third Age.
 

Let me say: I think they couldn't have.

Gwaith-i-Mirdain was the only one (I think) whom Sauron instructed in the forging of the Great Rings. Then he ransacked the place. Even if written records of the process was kept, I don't think it would have survived the Sack of Eregion.

And then there's the thought that the Gwaith might be all dead. So the only two ways of that information surviving (archaelogical records and word-of-mouth) might have been gone.

Vanity and Pride are the same motivations for Melkor or for Sauron to do the rings.
And in some ways, may be ,Celembrimbor too.
I believe Saruman was able to discover some secrets about Light. White is just a base. It is not fool in believe it.
It is the same motivation that pushed the Ainur to sing.
From void make Ea.
But give existence to a color without understand the Law that is the White is foolishness . To be fool is bad just when one not sees it.
Barbalbero said that Saruman mind were made of metal. But to search of what metal is done Narya is one of the most meaningful search for a man. Gandalf had to die to find properly it.
At the end Melkor was reunited with void & Eru.
The elves existence probably ( i guess) was to teach love and light and sing the gift of life, but were bond to Arda.
Men could go further, but at the end we all have to meet again the void & Eru. The difference is all in the tales we have helped to be told.

In a letter Tolkien noted that the Three did not confer invisibility. Technically that might just mean that they do not make the wearers invisible, but why make the Three themselves invisible and stop there?

In The Grey Havens it was said that Gandalf now openly wore his ring (this was a slight revision compared to the first edition): it might be interesting that this is added regarding Narya and not the other two, which are also noted as on the fingers of Elrond and Galadriel in this chapter. Granted why say it twice or three times that each now openly wore their rings; but on the other hand, for a long time the Three were already hidden in hidden Elven realms, while ultimately one was given to Gandalf, who wandered among many peoples -- and perhaps that was the reason behind noting this for Narya specifically.

In short, were the Three necessarily invisible?

I know the scene at Galadriel's mirror is suggestive of invisibility, but why should the Mirdain or Celebrimbor care to make the Three invisible before Sauron's plan was revealed? and yet not their wearers; why go only that far, considering that if 'invisibility power' were even part of the scenario, the Three were the most powerful in any event (though preservation power was admittedly key with these).

Even though Sam did not recognise Nenya for what it was, I don't think that suggests the ring itself had properties of invisibility. It was dark at the Mirror; Frodo saw the starlight glint on the ring's stone, and, having borne and worn the One, he knew what Nenya was.

The use of the Three by their keepers wouldn't seem to require the rings being invisible for secrecy to be maintained. The books say the Three were simply not used openly, nor were they discussed. If the rings themselves were invisible to all but their bearers, or the bearer of the One, why couldn't the Three have been used "openly" during the time of the watchful Peace, say? Who would have known?

I suspect Galadriel's pretense of being the evil dominating wielder of the One Ring had something to do with Frodo spotting Nenya. I believe she actively used Nenya before it was spotted, and used it as a light source. It's hard to be an invisible light source.

I strongly believe that the light source was Earendil. Moreover, Nenya is not the ring of light and fire.

I'm pretty sure the text states (the second time Galadriel lifts her hand) that the Ring issued a great light that illuminated her alone.

I think this is shirly to be connected with Sam's 'star' between Galadriel's fingers.

Sam saw 'something' but earlier he was greatly upset by his vision, didn't want to see any more magic, and a bit later wished Galadriel would take the One and stop 'them digging up the gaffer' and so on (revealing, I think, where his mind and attention was still focused).

That's a good point: although Earendil was said to be bright enough that Galadriel cast a dim shadow, it was still dark, and Frodo sees the ring when the starlight glanced off Nenya. And interestingly, the text does not say he suddenly saw Nenya, but that he saw it and suddenly understood.

I agree they don't need to be invisible, and I see no reason for Celebrimbor to have made them so initially. In one of Tolkien's letters (the Waldman letter), generally speaking I think invisibility power seems 'more connected' to Sauron, while as we know, the Three are distanced from Sauron and are said to be directed to preservation.

The 'problem' is that the second time Galadriel raises her arm Nenya issues a great light, and Sam somehow thinks this is a star...

... while Samwise was 'halfwise' and a simple hobbit, for some this seems 'too much' to accept (for him to have missed that it was a Ring, not a star) -- Sam may not have understood or certainly known Galadriel was revealing one of the great Three at this moment, but the argument is that he should have at least physically seen a ring.

I can 'see' that point, however I would argue that Sam's troubling vision had his attention before, and even after Nenya illuminated Galadriel... as evidenced by Sam's statement to Galadriel.

Anyone have opinions about that intepretation? Seem like too much? Tolkien doesn't really describe what Sam was doing while Galadriel and Frodo were talking, but the way he left Sam after his vision seems to imply (the possibility that) he need not be wholly engaged on what's going on right in 'front of him', so to speak.

If this could, at least in part, account for his answer to Nerwen Artanis.

At no point in the story does anyone see Gandalf's Ring until they reached the Havens. That would be a bit hard not to notice, seeing as Gandalf was with the hobbits for a long time, and on numerous occasions.

That's right... but Tolkien added (The Grey Havens, second edition of the 1960s) that Gandalf now openly wore Narya.

Would this not leave the interpretation open that he physically concealed Narya before this?

I would think so. Gandalf could have merely kept it about his person until he felt he needed to use it. Wearing it continuously would have been quite reckless, and probably unnecessary. I do find it interesting to think how it must have aided him over the years. Thorin Oakenshield, for one, might have been harder to convince, without it. ;)

Elrond and Galadriel, confining themselves to relatively secure environments, would have really had no need to be as secretive.

I have always seen this as Saruman's attempt to copy Sauron. I also think that it was one of Tolkien's 'Lost Tracks' which he left in as an oversight. He may well have had reason to mention this ring, but then continued down another route. Why does Tolkien mention it?, many people wear rings, why would Saruman's ring be of any import. When Gandalf expels Saruman from the Order his power has been deemed to have been broken, yet Gandalf warns them later on that he still has the power of his voice, if anything maybe the ring enhanced that and the power of that ring hadn't yet been broken (this is of course mere speculation on my part).

If I remember corretctly, you will find in the history of the wirtting of the Lord of the Rings, that Tolkien had Saruman at first find one of the Rings dedicated to the dwarves. This was later changed when the number of the Rings became more fixed and 7 Dwarven Rings were partily recovered by Sauron and partily destroyed be dragon fire.

That means, the improtance of mentioning the Ring at Sarumans hand first lay in the fact that there was at that time of writing no full account of all the Rings of Power. So one Ring less, one chance less that the one Ring in the hand of the hobbit is not the one.

Respectfuly
Findegil

I tend to think that, when not needed, Gandalf may have gone so far as to keep Narya in a "pocket" dimenstion, not technically on his person at all. In some way's this might contradict the edict to keep his Maiar powers hidden but that might not apply to tricks not designed to influence anyone, or that anyone else would see (and even if they did, everyone who knew Gandalf knew him as a wizard and so would not have been surprised by another magic trick). With Gandalf, after all, you have the tricky bit of how he (maybe) can get a new body and still have possesion of a ring he was given previosly, as well as his sword (I think, did Gnadalf still have Glamdrig when he was white?). You either have to believe that Gandalf was ressurected in his original body (possible). his old body dissapeared and his new body ressurected in the exact same place, he found his old body and retrived the ring/sword (in which case, one might assume he would recover and clothing that his old body was still wearing). Through somespell/ divine intervention cause the ring to fly from his old body to wherever his new body was. Or that the ring was kept somewhere where the location of his old body to the new one was irrelevant.

Then why not keep the One there indefinitely? ;)

I favour the idea of him being returned to his old body, since that's where he was when Gwaihir found him. All the items he had carried on his person would have been still there, undisturbed.

For the same reason Gandalf refused the ring whne Frodo offered it to him, he feared what would happen if it corrupted him. Wearing the ring, or keeping it near you, may accelerate it's ability to corrupt the person, but as long as you have "title" to it, it is not neccecary. If it was, Gandalf really could have simply hid the ring in "the deepest pits of Mendeluin" without Denethors knowledge (or for that matter simply buried it somewhere deep enough it would never be dug up again.) Actually putting the one ring in the pocket dimesion might have been extra risky, from Gandalfs point of view. As long as the ring was in the hands of someone who wore it or kept it close, it was theoretically possible to take it away physically, before the individual got too powerful. If Gandalf stuck in in the pocket dimension however, it would be somewhere where few if any people could get at it..........EXCEPT GANDALF. it would be like having it in an impregable box to which you had the one and only key. While the Ring wroght it's corruption on Gandalf, it would be in a place where no-one else could get near it. And by the time Gandalf took the ring out again to put it on, the ring would have likey made him so corrupt and so powerful as to be unopposable.



QUOTE=Inziladun;655631]I favour the idea of him being returned to his old body, since that's where he was when Gwaihir found him. All the items he had carried on his person would have been still there, undisturbed.[/QUOTE]

This, I agree is the most likey answer, though it does bring up again the "why naked?" question (My best answer is that we are supposed to assume Gandalfs nudity acually occured before he died on the peak, his clothes having been burned off (either by the Balrog's flames or by his own power pouring forth as he "uncloaks" to fight the Balrog)

This makes sense to me. It would be like what happened to Bilbo, who tried to lock the Ring, but couldn't keep it out of his mind.

The "pocket dimension' theory may technically be possible, I guess. With the lack of any textual evidence, though, I rather think Narya was simply hidden on Gandalf's person somewhere when not worn.

Though his clothing apparently did perish in the fight, I think the inner meaning of "naked" was that Gandalf's fleshly form in which he had arrived at Middle-earth was destroyed, and his spirit was "unclothed".

TTT The White Rider

There I think Gandalf referred to both states of "nudity", physical and spiritual. His "naked" spirit had returned to finish his task, but before that he was taken by Gwaihir to Lórien and given his white clothing.