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Tolkein speaks of the two other istari Pallando and Alatar who went to the East and failed their quest like Radagast and Saruman did. My question is how far into the East did they go? Were they the reason the Easterlings were allied wih Sauron, like Saruman's Dunlendings, or did they go all the way East to Cuivenen for some reason? It seems they are forgotten and are mentioned only in the UT. I'd like to know your thoughts on what role they played during the War of the Ring and after and where exactly they might have went.

By the way, I love your name. Turin is one of my favorite characters!
Ok, good question because I've wondered about this too. I don't think Tolkien explained them too much. He never really said much about them other than what's in Unfinished Tales, like you said. I guess they were pretty much not even noticed. They weren't in the White Council either were they? I don't think they were, someone please correct me if I'm wrong. But I think that since there wasn't anything about what role they played in the time of the War of the Ring, I always guessed that they just forgot completely the reason why they came to Middle-Earth. Most likely they just got caught up in the surroundings....? or something like that. Ok, let me some up because I know I must have lost you some place during all of my babbling. People must hate it when I post something! Ok, Pallando and Alatar probably went so far East, not WAY far, but far enough where people forgot about them and they probably isolated themselves where they didn't talk to people much. They didn't do what they were sent there to do, and I don't think they had anything to do with the War of the Ring. That's just my opinion though. But, they could have been apart of it, like helping prepare the armies and such, like that's maybe what Tolien meant by failing their job like Saruman. Hope my babbling helped!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I think that they were one of those intentional enigmas that Tolkien placed in Middle earth to create that depth that we all know and love.

Or at least that's what I tell myself when I'm lying awake at night fretting over exactly who the Blue Wizards were, why they came, what they did, and if they succeeded. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I have to agree, I like that the blue wizards were left shrouded in mystery. It leaves a bit to the imagination. I also like, on a related note, how the history of hobbits is a bit cloudy too.

Yes, I don't think that they had too much effect on the WotR otherwise Tolkein would have mentioned them more than what he did. But then again he might have put them in for the sole purpose of atmosphere so that the world seems a little larger. I don't know...

Radagast didn't do much good aither. he helped gandalf to escape from Orthanc, but even that was by accident. He didn't care for anything but animals. Maybe the blue wizards were like him, and if they had stayed in the western part of ME, they wouldn't have had any greater role. They would have been like Radagast. Or that's what I think Tolkien would have done with them.

The Blue Wizards (Ithryn Luin) didn't have names in ME. The names Pallando & Allatar are not made up by Tolkien or his son, but by ICE (Iron Crown Enterprises). Tolkien has said something about the Blue Wizards:
in UT - Istari - Note 3 Christopher Tolkien writes this:

Quote:

In a letter written in 1958 my father said that he knew nothing clearly about 'the other two', since they were not concerned in the North-west of Middle-earth. 'I think,' he wrote, 'they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to "enemy-occupied" lands, as it were. What succes they had I do not know; but I fear they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and "magic" traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.'

In this quote he seems to speculate about them, as we are all. The only thing known is that they moved East with Saruman and as they did they passed out of knowledge. The quote cited above is the only phrase I could find about them that was of any importance.

greetings,
lathspell

But the names Pallando and Alatar are mentioned in the section on the Istari, in a sketchy narrative written by Tolkien. Nowhere does it say that they were created by ICE. I seriously doubt that the names would be included in the book. Christopher Tolkien is very particular about what he puts in the books. These names were created by Tolkien himself.

[ May 22, 2002: Message edited by: Nufaciel ]

The names Pallando (which seems to mean "far wanderer") and Alatar are in the notes following "The Istari" in the Unfinished Tales. I had thought that Tolkien named which of the Valar each of the five chiefs of the Istari served as emissaries, or mentees (reciprocal of "mentor") of. I can find Olorin as form Lorien and Nessa, Curunir from Aule, and Radagast from Yavanna, but from whom come the blue? Anybody know?

I remember reading who they came from I'll try to find it later when I'm not busy, but I do know that the only reason they were there is because Saruman asked for them. Or one of them asked for the other. Something like that...I think it was Pallando was chosen and he asked for Alatar to be taken also.

From UT:

Quote:

But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë. Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin ? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained," apparently to explain Manwë's choice). But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin (illegible words follow that seems to contain word "third"). But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.
The note ends with the statement that Curumo [Saruman] took Aiwendil [Radagast] because Yavanna begged him, and that Alatar took Pallando as a friend. 6
On another page of jottings clearly belonging to the same period it is said that "Curumo was obliged to take Aiwendil to please Yavanna wife of Aulë." There are here also some rough tables relating the names of the Istari to the names of the Valar: Olórin to Manwë and Varda, Curumo to Aulë, Aiwendil to Yavanna, Alatar to Oromë, and Pallando also to Oromë (but this replaces Pallando to Mandos and Nienna).
The meaning of these relations between Istari and Valar is clearly, in the light of their brief narrative just cited, that each Istar was chosen by each Vala for his innate characteristics - perhaps even that they were members of the "people" of that Vala, in the same sense as is said of Sauron in the Valaquenta (The Silmarillion p.32) that "in the beginning he was of the Maiar of Aulë, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people." It is thus very notable that Curumo (Saruman) was chosen by Aulë. There is no hint of an explanation of why Yavanna's evident desire that the Istari should include in their number one with particular love of the things of her making could only be achieved by imposing Radagast's company on Saruman; while the suggestion in the essay on the Istari (p.407) that in becoming enamoured of the wild creatures of Middle-earth Radagast neglected the purpose for which he was sent if perhaps not perfectly in accord with the idea of his being specially chosen by Yavanna. Moreover both in the essay on the Istari and in Of the Rings of Power Saruman came first and he came alone. On the other hand it is possible to see a hint of the story of Radagast's unwelcome company in Saruman's extreme scorn for him, as related by Gandalf to the Council of Elrond:

continued:

Quote:

"Radagast the Brown !' laughed Saruman, and he no longer concealed his scorn. 'Radagast the Bird-tamer! Radagast the Simple! Radagast the Fool! Yet he had just the wit to play the part that I set him.'"

Whereas in the essay on the Istari it is said that the two who passed into the East had no names save Ithryn Luin "the Blue Wizards" (meaning of course that they had no names in the West of Middle-earth), here they are named, as Alatar and Pallando, and are associated with Oromë, though no hint is given of the reason for this relationship. It might be (though this is the merest guess) that Oromë of all Valar had the greatest knowledge of the further parts of Middle-earth, and that the Blue Wizards were destined to journey in those regions and to remain there.
Beyond the fact that these notes on the choosing of the Istari certainly date from after the completion of The Lord of the Rings I can find no evidence of their relation, in time of composition, to the essay on the Istari. 7

Yes, I read that now too... I hadn't finished the Istari-part in UT yet. Quite stupid to say such than.

greetings,
lathspell

Yes, I was interested in the speculative value of knowing that the blue wizards came from Orome, the great hunter; but UT already speculates that it was due to knowledge of further lands; on the other hand, if P and A were "Maia of Orome", we may infer that their gifts somehow lined up with Orome's interests and strengths. Tamer of Wild Beasts? Great Hunter? I don't have The Sil in front of me; what other titles and strengths could we propound onto the blue (in keeping with Tolkien's characterizations of the other 3) based on Orome?

Tolkien gives various and conflicting accounts of the blue wizards. Though they are called Alatar and Pallando in the UT fragment, they are called in another fragment from HoMe XII 'Romestamo and Morinehtar' (I believe), 'East-helper and Dark-slayer'. In one place, they are said to have failed, but in another Tolkien speculates that had in not been for them, Sauron's strength in the east would have been even greater. They are mentioned as having possibly founded magic cults among the Easterlings.

Tolkien's thoughts on the Ithrin Luin seem to be hopelessly confused and difficult to get a straight story out of.

I think one was sent to the Easterlings in Rhun (to get them to fight Sauron) and the other to th Avari/moriquendi in Cuivienen (to get them to either fight Sauron or go to Valinor). Either way, they probably failed (but they could still be trying...) Also, like countless other similar characters by Tolkien, one might have turned to evil but the other did not and continued to work for good. This isn't "official", just random ideas of mine.

Tolkien said that Olórin was the only one who stayed faithful to his mission, so we do know that they failed. However, other than that, I think that Tolkien left them as a mystery to make Middle Earth more real and much bigger than what is written in LotR.

i agree with Kurahar. Tolkien left this enigma for us to ponder, just as we are doing now. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Tolkien's references to the "failure" of the Blue Wizards are very contradictive. In one place he writes that they failed their mission and started magic cults among the Easterlings instead. Somewhere else I read that they did all they could to prevent more soliders going off to help Sauron, and I'm quite sure that it said that they succeeded, not failed. Well, they couldn't stop the whole army, but they lessened the numbers significantly.
I often wondered why Saruman came with them. Wanted to "see them off"? ;)