The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - The ring could have been destroyed a lot easier.

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The ring could have been destroyed a lot easier.

Why didn't and elf just take the ring across to Valinor.Surely the mighty Valar could of destroyed it and all those people would not have to suffer.

According to Elrond, it would not be received there:

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Originally Posted by Council of Elrond, FotR

And they who dwell beyond the Sea would not receive it: for good or ill it belongs to Middle-earth; it is for us who still dwell here to deal with it

they could have called the eagles, to bring them to the mount doom!

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Originally Posted by Atalantë

they could have called the eagles, to bring them to the mount doom!

I'm amazed nobody else has thought of that.

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I'm amazed nobody else has thought of that.

davem I'll miss your witty repartee. :P Though I do have to admit it would have made a much better story, I mean we wouldn't have to read all those pages and pages boring junk. :rolleyes:

Atalante, check out this, it's got all the answers to the eagles...

No, they couldn't have given it to the Eagles. Many reasons.

1) There would be no story

2) The Nazgul and the Eye of Sauron would easily see a gigantic bird flying towards Mount Doom.

3) How do you expect them to carry it? Their huge talon? It would easily slip out into hiding yet again!

4) Gwaihir himself told Gandalf that he could only bear him a short distance from Isengard. The Eagle's business is not with the people of Middle-earth.

Also, Tolkien writes on why the Eagles would not have taken the Ring into Mordor. It might be in that link the last poster gave, I'm not sure.

I think it's also good to note that the Eagles served Manwe. It can then easily be understood that, since the Valar did not want to take care of the Ring themselves, Manwe would not have wanted his servants, the Eagles, to get too involved.

Moderator's note

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Originally Posted by High Queen Galadriel

Why didn't an elf just take the ring across to Valinor. Surely the mighty Valar could of destroyed it and all those people would not have to suffer.

Please keep the answering posts on topic to the original question of this thread. There have been more than enough discussions of "What if the Eagles...", and they're still open for posting. Boromir already mentioned one of them; this post has links to the others. Thank you!

The Valar, eh? Two scenarios.

A scandalous effort by them to wilfully ignore the problem. "Oh! It's Middle-earth's trouble, not ours!" Cowards. Self-absorbed scoundrels. Do they really care about good and evil?

Or perhaps, just maybe, Elrond didn't know what he was talking about. Perhaps Manwë was sitting up there on the Mountain, shouting "No, you fools! Don't let the hobbit take it! Send it over here and we'll deal with it!"

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Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

It would be just like the elves to take that approach. And it would lend itself to an attack from a murder of crows--everyone knows how crows love shiney things--so that someone else would have to go after the murder before it could fly the Ring back to Fangorn or Dunland . I can see the potential for Radagast to get involved in this story line. If anyone could turn those crebain to the good side, wouldn't it be Radagast?

Beth, if you are suggesting that the Valar's gambit in the War of the (shiny) Ring was to rouse the magpies, I have to question whether their hearts were really in it.

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The Valar, eh? Two scenarios.

A scandalous effort by them to wilfully ignore the problem. "Oh! It's Middle-earth's trouble, not ours!" Cowards. Self-absorbed scoundrels. Do they really care about good and evil?

Or perhaps, just maybe, Elrond didn't know what he was talking about. Perhaps Manwë was sitting up there on the Mountain, shouting "No, you fools! Don't let the hobbit take it! Send it over here and we'll deal with it!"

But again, if this happened instead, there would be no story. The main thing you have to watch for when you come up with theories such as this is the story. Will your theory continue to have a story (having a plot, main and minor charcters, climax, all that fun stuff).

And I thought this thread had passed over the Sea into Mirth. ;)

Thoughts on the Valar...

They seem to have taken a back seat in the events of Middle-earth. Which is fine. Things tended not to work out as well as they would have liked when they did interfere with the lives of Men and Elves. Numenor, while it started well, became problematic and was destroyed cataclysmically.

And too, I can see them being hesitant to intervene in anything directly. They didn't know the whole of the music, so they couldn't have been sure of Eru's plans. And where Men were involved, those plans had a way of being unpredictable, since the music wasn't 'fate' to the mortals. They left the business of running Middle-earth to its inhabitants, though they did what they could to help indirectly. Consider the Istari, sent to aid the free people against Sauron but expressly forbidden to use their powers to interfere directly.

A final point - who's to say that the Valar could have destroyed it? They weren't incorruptible. Melkor certainly wasn't. Gandalf feared the Ring. Saruman sought it for himself. If it went to Valinor, who's to say that one of the Valar wouldn't have fallen to it and become the worst Dark Lord of them all since Morgoth? Accepting the Ring could well have been the worst possible step for the safety of Middle-earth.

EDIT: Now, don't go and underestimate those magpies, master Pirateomer. Dread creatures they are, and would be quite good scouts for anyone. As for turning them to the good side, I suppose Radagast might have done so, but being that he looked every bit the scarecrow (at least to my imagination), I don't know how much help he would have been. ;)

The successful destruction of the Ring was owed almost entirely to the Valar. It was they who sent the Istari, and it was Gandalf who saved Middle-earth by engineering and manipulating the events of the War of the Ring. Mount Doom, we're told, is the only fire that can unmake The One Ring; not just because it's the only fire hot enough, but because it is the fire in which it was originally forged: there's a metaphysical connection there. Taking the Ring to Aman would have done nothing to destroy Sauron, since as long as the Ring existed, Sauron was impossible to permanently eradicate. The only way, in fact, to defeat Sauron once and for ever was to destroy the Ring, which, as I pointed out above, could not have been done anywhere but Mount Doom. The Valar acted exactly how they should have by assigning the Istari to their mission--particularly in selecting the humble but mighty Olorin.

I,m with Obloquoy with this one, Bilbo was meant to find the Ring therefore Frodo was meant to have it, and that is a sobering thought. Is this not fate, is not fate in the hand of the God/Iluvatar or the powers. How many chess pieces are moved randomly, even in seeming defeat, Merry and Pippin to Fangorn, Smeagols continued existence. Concience is said to be the link with God, everyone has that voice in their head, was Eru active in the decisions of the Fellowship?

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The successful destruction of the Ring was owed almost entirely to the Valar

I disagree; their only merit was the sending of the Istari. The wizards have failed, all to the last - that is, until Eru intervened, resurrected Gandalf, enlarged his power and wisdom and sent him back.

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was Eru active in the decisions of the Fellowship?

Oh, I would say a _lot_:

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Originally Posted by Shadow of the past

I might perhaps have consulted Saruman the White, but something always held me back.
...
Why did it come to me? Why was I chosen?
Such questions cannot be answered, said Gandalf. You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess: not for power or wisdom, at any rate. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have.

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Originally Posted by Three is a company

The Elves have their own labours and their own sorrows, and they are little concerned with the ways of hobbits, or of any other creatures upon earth. Our paths cross theirs seldom, by chance or purpose. In this meeting there may be more than chance; but the purpose is not clear to me, and I fear to say too much. (Gildor)

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Originally Posted by Many meetings

Thank goodness I did not realize the horrible danger! said Frodo faintly. I was mortally afraid, of course; but if I had known more, I should not have dared even to move. It is a marvel that I escaped!
Yes, fortune or fate have helped you, said Gandalf, not to mention courage.

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Originally Posted by Councilf of Elrond

That is the purpose for which you are called hither. Called, I say, though I have not called you to me, strangers from distant lands. You have come and are here met, in this very nick of time, by chance as it may seem. Yet it is not so. Believe rather that it is so ordered that we, who sit here, and none others, must now find counsel for the peril of the world.
...
For on the eve of the sudden assault a dream came to my brother in a troubled sleep; and afterwards a like dream came oft to him again, and once to me.
In that dream I thought the eastern sky grew dark and there was a growing thunder, but in the West a pale light lingered, and out of it I heard a voice, remote but clear, crying:
Seek for the Sword that was broken...
...
Yet at last, as his shadow grew, Saruman yielded, and the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood and that was in the very year of the finding of this Ring: a strange chance, if chance it was.
...
If a man must needs walk in sight of the Black Gate, or tread the deadly flowers of Morgul Vale, then perils he will have. I, too, despaired at last, and I began my homeward journey. And then, by fortune, I came suddenly on what I sought: the marks of soft feet beside a muddy pool.
...
At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice.
I will take the Ring, he said, though I do not know the way.
...
Elrond raised his eyes and looked at him, and Frodo felt his heart pierced by the sudden keenness of the glance.
If I understand aright all that I have heard, he said, I think that this task is appointed for you, Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will. This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great. Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it? Or, if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck?

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Originally Posted by Farewell to Lorien

Maybe the paths that you each shall tread are already laid before your feet, though you do not see them. Good night!

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Originally Posted by The Breaking of the Fellowship

I wonder? said Aragorn. He is the Bearer, and the fate of the Burden is on him. I do not think that it is our part to drive him one way or the other. Nor do I think that we should succeed, if we tried. There are other powers at work far stronger.
...
It is no good trying to escape you. But I'm glad, Sam. I cannot tell you how glad. Come along! It is plain that we were meant to go together. We will go, and may the others find a safe road!

Sure, we might find mundane explanations for all these, but considering Manwe's dream about the hand of Iluvatar in the Silmarillion, Of Aule and Yavanna; the statements in the Atrabeth that "that Drama depends on His design and His will for its beginning and continuance, in every detail and moment" and that "of all His designs the issue must be for His Children's joy", I think we can safely assume that Eru was taking care that things go the good way.

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Originally Posted by Raynor

It was solely because of Gandalf's manipulation of events and people, and Saruman's research into ring-lore that anything was ever done about the Ring. In other words, the Istari saved the world. It's irrelevant that three of the five turned out largely useless.

Also, at no point did Gandalf fail. Eru's intervention was precisely because Gandalf succeeded not only in protecting his company and mission, but he had also conquered the moral test that Saruman had failed--namely, he maintained integrity to the Powers when confronted by an enemy that he really needed to open up against.

Lastly, there's no reason to believe that Gandalf's wisdom was enhanced. He was one of the wisest Ainur in his beginning, and was the wisest of the Istari from the start. Gandalf was enhanced with regard to the limiting nature of his incarnation and the rules he was subject to. Gandalf the White (and Olorin, who was presumably mightier still) was always a latent part of Gandalf of the Third Age, but was only allowed to be revealed after his true test of faith--that is, dying in abnegation of himself (to use Tolkien's word) to the Balrog. At that moment, though he had the power within himself to defeat that demon decisively, he remained loyal to the governing rules of his mission and kept his display of power in check.

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Gandalf made errors of judgement and Saruman's obstruction and betrayal proved almost fatal.

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At that moment, though he had the power within himself to defeat that demon decisively, he remained loyal to the governing rules of his mission and kept his display of power in check.

I disagree; he did the best he could to defeat the balrog; and there are other events in the past when he displayed his power (confronting the nazguls, lighting fires in the night, destroying the chamber of Marzabul).

To address your other points:

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Originally Posted by Letter #156

For in his condition it was for him a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defence of his companions, less perhaps than for a mortal Man or Hobbit, since he had a far greater inner power than they; but also more, since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in conformity to 'the Rules': for all he could know at that moment he was the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron successfully, and all his mission was vain. He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up personal hope of success.

That I should say is what the Authority wished, as a set-off to Saruman. The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. 'Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.' Of course he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater.

I must disagree with you Raynor, Gandalf, or Olorin, had a part in the devising of the world, he was the wisest of the children of the Valar, more powerful(?) than even Melian who protected a realm from Melkor the Mighty! Doing those things with the Nazgul and the Chamber is probably like lifting a feather for him. I think he must have been holding himself back, even a lowly Noldorian elf can destroy a Balrog.

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I had to speak a word of Command.

Is this Gandalf using part of his Olorinary ;) power?
And what does it mean when he threatens to uncloak before Bilbo, is this also a threat to reveal himself?

The Newbie signs out.

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more powerful(?) than even Melian who protected a realm from Melkor the Mighty

Melian protected her realm against all Melkor's forces, Gandalf fell to a single balrog.

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Doing those things with the Nazgul and the Chamber is probably like lifting a feather for him

Wrong on both accounts; in Many meetings, Gandalf states he was "hard put to it" when fighting the nazgul; and after destroying the chamber he can't light the way for the company, being "rather shaken".

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even a lowly Noldorian elf can destroy a Balrog

Glorfindel and Ecthelion as lowly elves??

What I was trying to say was according to Valaquenta Olorin was the 'wisest' of the Maiar, if he was this mighty is he just refusing to show his power because of Manwe's orders? For his inner power would these things be easy, like destroying the Chamber? And it may be up for debate whether he meant he was sorely trialed from breaking his 'Rules' against the Nazgul, if the greater power of his would have had less trouble...

And Elves in general are less powerful than Maiar, even the great lords maybe, this was the impression I was going on.

Will cease arguing now! ;)

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Originally Posted by Raynor

Melian protected her realm against all Melkor's forces, Gandalf fell to a single balrog.
Wrong on both accounts; in Many meetings, Gandalf states he was "hard put to it" when fighting the nazgul; and after destroying the chamber he can't light the way for the company, being "rather shaken".
Glorfindel and Ecthelion as lowly elves??

There were limitations that he had to observe (or was perhaps forced to observe) as an incarnate Istar. Nobody* is claiming that his mission was a refreshing stroll in the park; however, if you do some research you'll realize that Gandalf's latent and native power was far greater than what shone through his old man suit.

Edit: *I guess that other guy is claiming that, but he's wrong.

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What I was trying to say was according to Valaquenta Olorin was the 'wisest' of the Maiar, if he was this mighty

You seem to confuse wise with mighty.

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And it may be up for debate whether he meant he was sorely trialed from breaking his 'Rules' against the Nazgul

Why would Gandalf hint to his istar conditions, and therefore to his angelic nature? That is the very thing he should avoid, so you are almost contradicting yourself. I don't see any double meaning in his saying.

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if you do some research you'll realize that Gandalf's latent and native power was far greater than what shone through his old man suit

I am not sure if you are in disagreement with something I said or if that is a personal comment; either way, please be more specific.

This is all very interesting, first of all, thanks for a learning experience!

What are the limitations he is subject to anyway, I can't remember where I read them... I was under the impression he has to be limited to the incarnate body...

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Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

What are the limitations he is subject to anyway, I can't remember where I read them... I was under the impression he has to be limited to the incarnate body...

The Valar barred the Istari from open displays of their full powers when they were sent to Middle-earth.

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Originally Posted by Unfinished Tales, The Istari

For with the consent of Eru they [the Valar] sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt. (emphasis mine)

Hope that answers the question. :)