A 10th Nazgul?
 

If a Nazgul were to stab an enemy with a Morgul blade, the victim over time becomes a wraith, albeit weaker & under the command of the Nazgul. Why then did not the Nazgul carry this out on more enemies, e.g. Gollum? Gollum in the wraith form could have accompanied the Nazgul to hunt down the Ring. His instincts & knowledge of Hobbits could have helped them land the Ring much sooner. :D

Alternatively, Sauron may have ordered the Nazgul to only target the Ring Bearer with the Morgul Knife, since a wraith would not be easy to dispose of once created.

Morgul blades
 

As far as we know from LR, the Nazgûl only had one Morgul knife with them. Perhaps they were rare weapons, only to be used in unusual circumstances.

Gollum was already enslaved to the Ring, and Sauron could be fairly confident that following him would lead to its discovery sooner or later. It was easier to follow him in the hope that he would find the Ring than to waste powerful weapons or torture in the extraction of whatever garbled information he had about its whereabouts. Only Gandalf seems to have had the patience to tease some sort of coherent narrative out of his rambling babble.

As for disposing of the wraith once created, it seems that once the lesser wraiths have served their purpose, they become playthings for Sauron and his minions rather than useful servants.

Why not simply inject the blade into a strong living man, & let him join the Nazgul? 10 Black Riders would surely have brought home the Ring to Sauron.

I suppose the answer would be the same as the one Squatter put before: the Morgul-blades were probably very rare weapons and not to be used just for stabbing around. Don't forget the blade broke when it hurt Frodo; the possibility of losing one such weapon in exchange for one little wraith (after a little time of waiting) is not much of a win. Also, Sauron wouldn't want to send some sort of newly recruited wraith on such an important mission; we know that he wanted to send only the Ringwraith because he was 100% sure of their loyalty: they had "no other will than his own" and they were bound by the Rings. Also, when Gandalf explains to Frodo what would've happened to him if he was not healed, he says that he'd become a lesser shadow under the command of the Wraiths. So not much of a gamble as well. One more less powerful wraith won't change the odds. That's to say if Sauron even had as many horses ;)

Sauron could have used the Morgul Blade on the Mouth of Sauron, one of his most trusted servants. Why not commit to enslaving as a 10th Nazgul?

Would there have been a spare ring? Actually, I'm struck by the symbolism of the nine rings on Sauron's nine fingers, & the Ringwraiths almost as manifestations of his fingers stretching out across M-e & his eye constantly seeking out the Ringbearer, as if Sauron is physically present everywhere ... (I think I read something similar in the One Ring's People's Guide to Tolkien)

That's what I thought, even making a "lesser wraith" won't make anything equal or at least similar to a "true" Nazgul: it would be simply as making one more silly Barrow-wight (if ever, with all respect to Barrow-wights ;) ).

I'm not sure about the fingers interpretation; I mean: I'm not sure if Tolkien ever said he had that in mind; though it is a fitting idea. We can paraphrase the famous Gollum's words: "He has only nine on his Black Hands, but they are enough".

Anyway, making a 10th Nazgul won't just sit from the very logic of it: the Nazgul are what they are and making more would completely destroy the effect. Plus, 10 does not seem to be such a good number as well. It's just too much.

This may sound very amusing, but what would happen if the Morgul Blade was used on, say, an Oliphaunt? Perhaps the outcome would be a creature which a Nazgul could command as a steed?

If steeds for the Nine could be created this way, why steal horses from Rohan or create winged creatures for the Nine to ride?

Is there not a difference between a Wraith and a Ring Wraith? The nine each had contact with one of the 9 mortal rings, and this was the route of their incarceration - it is completely different to the Morgul Blade's affliction. The nine hunt the one ring, what evidence is there to suggest a Wraith of different substance would do so also?

Personally, on reading the book, i thought that Frodo would have become a dithering "specter" like figure, serving the Nazgul, yet below them utterly. Legate mentioned this in his post and i am inclined to agree as it ties closely with my own interpretation.

To summarize: By my interpretation alone, it would appear to me that because of the nature of the original Ring Wraiths and how they came to be, it is impossible to replicate them unless in the same fashion. I believe a Wraith and Ring Wraith classification is necessary, being that they are very different in power and authority. I think that if say Frodo was to be stabbed with the Morgul Blade, he would have been inferior and not able to detect the ring, therefore being rendered quite useless to Sauron and the Nazgul - furthermore, i believe one such person would be nothing but a servant to the Ring Wraiths and the Good Lord Sauron.

Many questions, few answers
 

Originally posted by davem:
Actually, there might have been a few. The seven dwarf-rings were either destroyed or recovered by Sauron. We know he at least held Thrain's ring, which he captured in Dol Guldur in T.A. 2845. These rings were never specifically intended for the Dwarves, so they were probably not different in nature than the nine that ensnared the Nazgul. Certainly, these dwarf-rings were not sitting in a forgotten jewelry box in the attic of Barad-Dur. Sauron would certainly have tried to use them as he had used all the others, to ensnare powerful servants, slaves to his will. (In fact, this might explain the Mouth of Sauron, both his great age and the fact he has forgotten his own name. There's no way to prove it from what I know, however.)

But I digress from the topic of this thread. There seems to be a similar, though lesser, capacity to enslave mortals inherent in the Morgul-blade as is inherent in the Nazgul rings (or actually, became inherent when the One Ring was created. I'm sure Celebrimbor did not create the Rings with the intention of enslaving mortals.) Aside from their common inventor (Sauron) might there be any connection between them? What I mean is, the Nine enslave their bearers because they are slaves to the One. How does a Morgul-blade enslave? It's unlikely the blades were forged with the power of the One, since that was either in the Anduin, under the Misty Mountains with Gollum or in Bilbo's pocket (unless the blades date from the second age. Anyone know?) Could they have been forged with one of the Nine, or whatever are left of the Seven? or are they a seperate technology?

And what of the Barrow-wight? He is presumably the Ghost Prince of Cardolan, is he not? The enemy of the Witch King of Angmar in life. What made him a ghost, instead of passing beyond the circles of the world? Would an earlier Morgul-blade, if used, have the power to trap his spirit in his grave? Just how powerful could they be?

I'll start from the back. I believe the Morgul-blades are "modern", 3rd-age thing, because they are "Morgul-blades", which implies that they were made in Minas Morgul, that would be in the 3rd millenium of the Third Age. Only it could be that "Morgul" here is just the Elven word that means simply "sorcery" or "witchcraft", but personally I think not.
Anyway, to the main question. "How does a Morgul-blade enslave?" I believe the process is totally different from how the Rings enslave. The Morgul-blade, so to say, slowly kills you. The Ring just possesses you and fading is just a side effect, but the Morgul-blade chills you and makes you fade. The splinter traveled to Frodo's heart, if it pierced it (as it was the original intention, anyway), he'd be dead, technically, but the will of the Ringwraith (or Sauron) would possess his body (or "shadow", to be precise in terminology, since he'd enter the Wraith-world at that moment). There's something like a thin line between the seen and unseen and you pass it for example when you have the Ring on; and so Frodo would be trapped in this world forever as the Ringwraith are, seeing everything dim as they do, and his body would have just disappeared for the others (as if he were invisible). That's at least how I imagine it, I may be wrong. I imagine it the way that his brain "freezes" and his own personality is "doused" and the Ringwraith then could possess him. Technically, the result is the same as when he is possessed by the Ring, but the way is, I believe, somewhat different.

I believe this has nothing common with a proto-Morgul-blade, though I believe if something similar happened, the result would be a creature maybe weaker, maybe almost as strong (depending on how powerful it was in life) as a barrow-wight. However, as far as I know, the barrow-wights were NOT the spirits of Dúnedain! That's I believe very important thing many people are confused in: in Middle-Earth, the spirits of Men leave their bodies and go beyond the Circles of the World, unless something very strange happens. The only folks who were really "ghosts" were the Men of Dunharrow, and that was for their unfulfilled oath and the curse laid upon them by Isildur. But the Dúnedain were of good heart and there was no reason for their spirits to remain in the world (as far as I know there's nothing like the "vengeful ghosts" who remain on the earth because they were murdered and wait for "satisfaction" or whatever), unless the Witch-King trapped them with some necromancy; however even these things are not said in the canon and as far as I know, even in HoME there is just a speculation that Sauron might have trapped some Elves' spirits in Dol Guldur - but that speaks of Elves and not about Men; Men are quite a different sort and I'm not sure how much power Sauron would have over them after their death (just a side note, the Nazgul were not dead, but "faded to shadows"; had they died first, Sauron would probably have no power over them, they'd just leave the Circles of the World like everyone else). The Barrow-wights, to return to the original thought, were some "evil spirits" (who knows what; maybe some of these Necromancy-trapped spirits or the same sort of "spirits" that, as we read in the Silmarillion, were summoned to inhabit the bodies of Ents and Eagles).
So, technically: the Barrow Frodo was in belonged (probably) to the last prince of Cardolan, but what lived inside was not some corrupted ghost of the prince, but a creature possessing his tomb, his treasures and his bones.

I do agree that the barrow-wights were not the spirits of men(I believe that it mentions somewhere that they were indeed simply spirits of darkness, or things that the Witchking had conjured at Carn-Dum, either way they were not the spirits of men). But I do think that the Morgul-Blades would make one more powerful than most of you(if not all) are describing.
I always imagined that by 'lesser darkness', it meant like how there were Maiar that were weaker than others, like comparing Sauron to Gandalf. In this case, we compare the Nazgul to the wraiths of their creation(or not?). Who knows? We never actually saw any of these wraiths (at least to our knowledge), and Frodo didn't die (or become possessed, however you want to call it) by his most greivous of wounds. The fact of the matter is, we really don't know. To the most of my knowledge, little was really said about these 'lesser wraiths' than what is said in the FotR. I simply wish Tolkien had said more of the matter, the topic in itself fascinates me to a great extent.

I had this same question some time ago. As stated in the text, the 5 Nazgul withdrew after stabbing Frodo, thinking he would have soon succumbed to the wound. This suggests of course that they had some experience in the matter of turning their victims in to wraiths. This suggests in turn that there are more than one of these victims wandering around, although lacking one of the Nine Rings, there power would be very limited.

In fact, I was wondering whether this was not the fate of Earnur, who was lost in Minas Morgul...

You are right. This topic is indeed very interesting (like most of the "unfinished tales" of Tolkien), but as with many things, we are indeed left to speculation.

I wouldn't be so sure. As I said before, if it were that easy to make Morgul-blades, the Nazgul could make about hundred of them, send some Orcs to make a raid and kill a hundred Gondorians, and thus make a nice little army of wights.
Concerning the withdrawal of the Ringwraith, I don't think they would need to have practical experience with turning people to wraiths - if they made them (especially the Witch-king, which I believe he did, being the master of sorcery and all; and even if he did not, as a sorcerer he would "know" how the blade works). That's not that I am saying they did not (or, to be precise, the Witch-King did not) stab anyone with a Morgul-blade before, making him a wraith, but I believe this could have happened once or twice, not twenty or thirty times (or maybe, the Nazgul being so ancient - and if the Morgul-blades are ancient as well, and do not exist just from the moment when Minas Morgul was built, for more about this see my post above - they could have done that more often, especially during the Second Age when Sauron was at his full power; but that would mean twenty or thirty times in five thousand years, which is not as much).

You are coming to very similar conclusions, or ideas I once had as well (well, I was eleven at that moment, but forget it :D ), and it's more than logical. Since we don't know anything of Eärnur's fate, and he rode to Morgul to face the Witch-king himself, it is not as improbable that he could end like that. However that's still left only to speculation and in my opinion, if we were to stay more true to the "spirit of the story", it would be more probable that Eärnur was ambushed by a force of orcs, outnumbered, and though he fought valiantly and slain many orcs, he could not win because the orcs were many, and his body was dishonourably... hmm... thrown to Shelob? Or something like that.

I am not sure that a Morgul blade in the hands of an Orc would have an identical effect as it would wielded by one of the Nazgul.

It seems the suggestion is that it was the work of the Nazgul, since Tolkien in Appendix A says:

although this does not rule out Orcs issuing from the tower. Still, it seems likely that only the Nazgul could have guaranteed that none escaped, or perhaps more importantly, that (with the people of Gondor)

But to me, the strongest indication that wraiths are likely to be out there is that Gandalf says that the Nazgul withdrew expecting the Morgul Blade to do its work and turn Frodo in to a wraith. This suggests some previous experience with this... But then, the Hobbit did not fade nearly as fast as the men who had experienced the same wound...

Well, of course I did not even expect that something as rare and powerful as the Morgul-blades would be given to the hands of an Orc, that would be like giving a Ring of Power to an Orc, which is a nonsense (from Sauron's point of view I believe with no doubt). But what you said is interesting - so you think that the Morgul blade did not have the powers of its own, but that it depended also on who the wielder was, like for example with the One Ring (where it gave the bearer power according to his own)?

Especially when there were the knights, I would suspect an ambush there, and it's not necessary to think that they were ambushed by Nazgul there (although if they wanted to scare Eärnur's men to death, it could be maybe more interesting than simple regiment of Orcs). But I think not, and where we don't have definite statement, it's better to try to look for a similar situation and how Sauron acted. And Sauron, that "base master of treachery", is quite capable to invite you somewhere and then send a few dozen Orcs at you. The WK or other Nazgul could have "supervised" all the action, mainly when someone as important as Eärnur was concerned, but what is pretty clear also from the second quote you provided, Eärnur was most likely not beaten in a "fair fight", and while he came to the land of the enemy, where there were hundreds of Orcs all around him, I don't think the WK would necessarily need to bother with him personally. Although it is possible, for he was certainly convinced that "no living man could kill him" (as we know from his speech at Pelennor), so he will not have any problem with going to face Eärnur.

Again, if you take just the plain facta, it is not necessary that they had the personal experience - they could have just known how the blade works, theoretically (as when you buy some apparatus and you never used it, but you know what it's supposed to do). Gandalf also knew what the blade is supposed to do and we can say that he definitely did not use the blade before. (This of course implies that he probably knew that such a thing exists and how it works, either through studying some "knowledge of the Enemy" - so more probably he heard of that from Saruman - or through hearing about, or experiencing some case when another person was hurt. But then, it won't be Eärnur, as no one knew of his fate.) In any case, it is only a theory that the Nazgul have used the blade before, and it is only a theory that if they did, one of the uses could have been Eärnur. The tale is not saying "no", but it is not even saying "yes".

Well, I don't know about that. It seems to me clearly stated in the text by Gandalf that the Nazgul withdrew expected the wound from the Morgul Blade to overcome Frodo. Otherwise, they would have attacked again. This doesn't seem to be something that would be a "theoretical result"--much likelier to have come from some prior experience.

I suppose that a large company of Orcs could have trapped Earnur and his Knights, but certainly the Witch King did not seem to be afraid to confront him 9 years or so before in Eriador...

Well the Witchking may have been mighty and merciless, but it seems that he can be rather easily goaded into battle, as we certainly saw by his encounter with Eowyn.
No doubt Earnur would have occasionally mocked him over his loss of Angmar. So it was likely a matter of pride for our tall and gruesome freind.
And even accepting the Witchking's challenge (however delayed it may have been) seems rather arrogant and possibly insulting to the Witchking. I am not meaning to draw any conclusions by my next statement, so please don't make it sound like I am. But what better fate for one that had drawn the Witchking's rage as much as Earnur, than to become the very thing he had fought so bravely against. This is only speculation however, and comes simply from my understanding (If it can be called such) of the Witchking's hatred of Earnur and the Gondorians.
But as I have said before, we really don't know.

I agree that anyone who got wraith-ized with a black stabby wraith knife would not have been a Black Rider-level wraith. They would be a different variety of wraith altogether, as their wraith-ness had no connection any of the Rings, really. Had Frodo been successfully wraith-ized avec wraith knife, he would have become a puny, flimsy, useless, drifting, invisible spirit. The point of the wraith-izing morgul knife was to take away power, not to grant more of it. They were trying to make him as thoroughly weak and helpless as possible.

I don't think Frodo could have become a wraith like the other Nazgul; he would definitely be a lesser wraith, possibly even a spy because of his short stature.

You have to remember that before the Nazgul were wraiths they were great kings of men, skilled in battle and strategizing. It would be hard to find another living person who would meet their skill. The Nazugul were use to working with each other, they could act as a team, and a new addition to that team may have caused friction between them. Maybe this is why they didn't have more Nazgul, but I think anyone would be content with Nine wraiths.

Remember, Sauron could only control the Keepers of the Nine when he had the One- otherwise they would be free agents, outside his dominion. Sauron would have to have forced their Rings from them before the end of the Second Age, after they had been thoroughly 'wraithed.' In the Third Age he couldn't give them out again, because he would have no way of controlling the new Bearer.

One also wonders what would happen to one of the Nine if his Ring were given to someone else- would his link to it be broken? Would he die?

That's right, I totally forgot about the nine rings. Good post William!:D

Interesting topic! I like many here do not think that being stabbed by a Morgul blade turns you into a Ringwraith, though it does seem to turn you into some form of wraith-like creature perhaps something like the Barrow-weights, or the dead men of Dunharrow perhaps? Or maybe even something like the dead seen in the Dead Marshes?

I believe Boromir, son of Denethor I, was stabbed by a Morgul blade while defending Osgiliath, and while it didn't completely kill him it shortened his life. How did he recover from his wounds without turning into a wraith?

The blade obviously did not pierce his heart.

In lieu of the thread's title ("A 10th Nazgul?"): by definition, one can only become a Nazgul/Ringwraith by wearing a Ring of Power for extended periods of time. Getting stabbed by a Morgul blade might turn you into a Morgulbladewraith, but it's certainly not going to make you a Ringwraith.

I'd always wondered what would have become of Frodo if he had faded. Luckily - I guess - we never get to find out. ;)

That said, in Rivendell we hear Gandalf talk about what 'could' have happened. How did Gandalf know? Where did he gain said knowledge? Was there any examples? Surely there must have been one, and that one human, as Gandalf compares Frodo to the yardstick of a human warrior (whom Frodo surpassed by many many days in bearing the splinter of Morgul).

I do agree that the notched "Wraithanator" knife born by the Witch-King was not a common artifact. I assume that this knife, and any like it, were the product of some spell that required some time and resources to prepare. So they weren't too common, but there must have been two - or another like item that created wraiths, as again the Wise have information about the effects of one. Why the King chose to use it against Frodo and not any Gondorian - like Faramir and Boromir - or elf or human king, I'll never know as it seems to me that he could have claimed the Ring with less expense, and used the 'hard to produce' knife for greater gain. A notched arrow may have been even more effective.

And note that I love the thought of a wraith Oliphaunt. :D

Why - something like this :D
http://kishokahime.deviantart.com/ar...wraith-5044052

A wraith olliphant hehe... If you want to get a visual of how it might look check this movie out. I caught a few minutes of it in a hotelroom during a recent holiday...

The Mammoth (2006)

http://uk.imdb.com/title/tt0487037/

"We hunted it to extinction. Now it's hunting us."

What will they make a movie about next?:eek:

A wraith-making dart....................

If enough could be made, it would be a devastating weapon (especially in a RTS game). The qualifier being "If". Still, wow.

Maybe I'll borrow this idea for my book.......