What happened to Mordor?
 

What happened to Mordor after the fall of the Dark Tower? Was it possible for men to clear the evil waste in this land & use it for good purposes? Also, what of Cirith Ungol? With the throne vacant, could this dreadful city ever be returned to it's former glory as Minas Ithil?

4th Age Mordor
 

As far as I remember the fertile lands of Mordor around lake Nurnen were given by Aragorn to the freed slaves of Sauron, so I guess this part was fertile and habitable.

As for Northern Mordor, Gorgoroth etc, it seems heavily polluted by Sauron & co and low on rainfall, added to that Mt. Doom blew ts top and preumably covered the place in ash, pyroclastic flows, lava, spikey rocks, bits of winged beast etc. The Towers of the Teeth collapsed at the destruction of the ring but don't know about Cirith Ungol. Certainly Aragorn intended to destroy Minas Morgul,

I'd guess that that must of been true of most of the nastier bits of Mordor.

However, to speculate, if the climate had improved and Northern Mordor got a bit more rain it would be likely that plants would return swiftly and recolonise the place. For example, the area around Mount St Helens in the USA was devastated when it blew up but is now recovering, the remaining bits of Krakatoa are now lush jungle etc.

If I was Aragorn
 

If I was Aragorn, (or for that matter Faramir sice as Price of Ithilien Mordor is now directly on my border). There would be A few MAJOR things I would do before I let anyone live in Mordor. The end of Sauron left a lot of little dangers left in Mordor and I would definty not want to leave any of them lying around for some other dark lord wannable to find.

First and Formost I would send a VERY large, VERY well armored and armed Group of warriors directly to Cirrith Ungol to make sure Shelob is dead or to kill her if she isn't If she is alive she I just too great a risk to live next to especially since they is always the chance that with not orc sacrifices to feed her she could develop Ungoliants ablity to make her own darkness and migh leve the caves to go hunting in the land at large.

Secondly I would see that the ashes of Baradur were CAREFULLY sifted to confirm the destruction of such items as the Ithil stone (I wouldn't want some other person with acess to a Palantir without my knowledge.) Similarly though it is not directly in Mordor I would establish a Garrison to put Amon Hen and Amon Llaw back into service.

Thirdly (and admittely least importantly I would forces to do some serios civic improments such as clearing all the thorns of Mordor and making a few more roads

I can proably think of more things later but thats enough to start

These suggestions would take many, many years to implement, especially after the battering Gondor took during it's siege. I would, however, be very interested to know what unkown treasures may be found in Cirith Ungol, which is still intact. Also, Moria may be rekindled to it's former glory. Mithril may be found also. This is all fine & well, but what did actually happen? Where did all the orcs go?

There was a thread back then, I don't know how much help it will be, but you can look at it: HERE

Did the Dwarves ever retake Moria?

I never said that the chages metioned would be easy . Re-building a completely wrecked territory is never easy. I merely said that I beived that all of these steps would be necesscary before any serious settling could occur at least in Northern Mordor. Granted most of the steps would take a very long time (especially the last two) In fact they probably could not be completed within Aragorn's lifetime. I was merely point out that if Cirith Ungol was left as is it would be a potential disaster down the line. And it simply would make sense to send a small force early than to wait and have to send a very large force later. Shelob is Mighty But I would imagine the a hundred or so warriors suitably armed and provision with appropriate items (such as a lot of torches and bonfire wood) would be able to handle her. Alternitvely (if Aragorn would be willing to decend to the level of claiming some of the enemies technology for his own use) Aragorn could have some of Sauruman's blasting fire made up (the recipe is probably somewhere in Orthanc; I doubt Saruman was able to take many of his books with him) and simply blast the cave closed at both ends. Checking for the Ithil stone and reclaims Amon Hen and Amon Llaw were simply my ideas for the king to be able to make sure that all metods of extmemly long distace survaillance were under his control. the bramable removal and road addions would be of lowers priority and might in fact be uneseccary (if the climate chaged the brambles might die of thier own accord) I agree with you that thier might be treasure in Cirrith Ungol ( I assume you meant the tower not the cave itself) and such treasure might be useful in re-building

There was a prophecy that a descendant (at some unspecified time in the future) of Thorin III Stonehelm would be Durin VII, and in his time the Dwarves would return to Moria: but he would be the last reincarnation of Durin.

Not all of Mordor is Barren
 

Sorry to resurrect such an old thread but I jsut had a realization that would put a new spin on some of the arguments, maybe. Namely not all of Mordor is so desolate or barren. You forget that geographically Mordor incudes the region known as Nurn (in the extreme south) Nurn is said to be Mordor's Breadbasket, the source for the food nececcary to sustain Sauron's army. It is written that after Sauron's fall Aragorn freed the slaves who tended the fields of Nurn and turn the land over to them even if the rest of Mordor was irredemable I think that there would proably be some Gondorians who migh come to settle alongside the Nurnians. Technically this would be resettlemnt of Mordor.

Is it right that the Gondorians would want to 'colonise' the Nurn?

I'm not sure "colonize" is the right word. That seems to imply that Gondor would want to conquer Nurn and set themseves as its new masters. If that was the case Aragorn would not have freed the slaves in the first place. Presumably, liberated nurn is an independent land which may have fealty to Gondor but would mostly govern itslef (a la Ithilien) what I meant was that as time progressed some Gondorians (or other men of the free nations) might immigrate to Nurn and settle alongside the Nurnians. Aragorn might approve of this, as it would mean that he would have friendly kingdoms on both of Mordor's borders. As time progressed the people of Nurn could slowly spread north, reclaming the rest of Mordor and (assuming it isn't completely blighted) making it habitable again they also might help in bulding roads between Nurn and Gondor/Ithilien so as to allow trade between the two nations (Though since Nurn has the inland sea Nurnnen, I suspect that most trade would be conducted via water.)

Well, reading these lines from the book, I don't think Mordor's corruption was cleansed anytime in the Fourth Age.

'unless the Great Sea should enter in and wash it with oblivion'. That would mean the Bibical Flood that Tolkien predicted at the end of the Fourth Age.

What a great piece of writing.

Very interesting - in The New Shadow, Tolkien planned to have Gondor fall into decay and evil practices once Aragorn had died. Perhaps that story would have ended with God becoming angry with all the evil Middle-Earth had fallen into and flooding the world, only saving Noah and his family - this would remove the last traces of Middle-Earth's history from the world and lead into the rest of the Bible and then towards modern history. Did Tolkien plan something like this?

Hmmm....penal colony? That's what I would have done with Mordor.

What's this New Shadow business? Why have I never heard of this before?

Will we ever know? (unless Christopher still has unpublished stuff he hasn't edited yet.)

If Mordor becomes a sort of Gondorian colony, how different would the King (but definitely not Aragorn, he's too noble for that) be from Sauron-minus-the-Magic/Power?

And I notice a sort of cyclic thingy with JRRT. A great man (it applies to all races, be it Men or Dwarves or whatever) rises from the ashes and becomes king/lord, and rules well. Then for the next few generations shadows arise, and the last king is the most evil of all. Destruction ala Noah comes, but a good man descended from the first king (they always have to be descended, wonder why?) and leads a part of the people and becomes a sort of a new king on grounds of heredity and maybe morality as well. And then the cycle begins again.

But Gondor's already been a colonial power. She did conquer large parts of Rhun and Harad.

No, Gondor wasn't a colonial power. At its peak, the Haradrim and Easterlings paid tribute to it, but it didn't conquer and settle their territories. During his reign Aragorn only restored its original boundaries. As for Nurn, it was given to Sauron's freed slaves.

Again, I ask: what is "The New Shadow"?

"The New Shadow" was meant to be a sequel to LOTR. Set after Aragorn's death, it would feature some new sorcerous cults rising under the Mouth of Sauron(I believe).
Tolkien wrote about 14 pages and then abandoned it as he thought it would demean everybody's sacrifices in LOTR if evil just rose again in little more than a century.

Wow. I had no idea. I can't believe I've never heard of it before...thanks for filling me in. Fascinating.

You can argue neo-colonialism for that....

An interesting find
 

I was reading a book about about the mythes and lore of Middle Earth and I found something that reffered to an ancient library in Mordor. It talked about Sauron during the years of preparation for battle of the Last Alliance. It said that Sauron was fearful that he might be overthrown, however slight the chances may have been, and started to right down all of his knowledge and store it somewhere in the plains east of Gorgoroth (I forget the name of it, it's where the black steeds are bred for the Nazgul) for another to come and finish his work. I don't know if this bit of information is true, I just thought that it was interesting. Who knows, this might have been that plot for "The New Shadow."

Well, if this is so, you should mention what was the source of your information... so that one can at least make a picture if it's trustworthy, if possible.

Just because it interests nobody but me...
 

I always pictured Nurn like the swamps in Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. I'll try to find a screenshot.

http://i.pbase.com/u48/morsla/upload...owindswamp.jpg

Nurn would be sort of gloomy even in the daytime, scattered with ramshackle huts and peopled by a broken race, who endlessly till the poor but boundless fields and farm the strange animals...

The book was called Tales from the Shadows by Braden Burgess. I don't consider it to be reliable material that is approved of by Tolkien, but I thought that it might hold just a grain of truth.
I pictured Nurn to be the most hospitable place in all of Mordor. Since Sauron's slaves farmed the area the soil would have to be rich and not thorny or rocky like the plains of Gorgoroth. After all, King Ellessar gave the lands to Sauron's slaves after the downfall of the dark tower so I'm sure there would have been sunlight and fruitful plains for people to make a living.

Hmmm...I've never heard of Braden Burgess. So I looked up Braden Burgess on Google, and then I looked up Burgess Braden, and it seems Google has never heard of him either. This...book...who is the publisher? How did Mr. Burgess get by Tolkien Enterprises and/or the Tolkien Family Trust to write a fictional account of Middle-earth, which would clearly be copyright infringement (and it would seem more fan-fic than anything canonical)?

To Groin:
That is 100% fan-made stuff.

Nice idea from the fans, but still, not Tolkien.

:(

Actually, Gondor, and later the Rohirrim, were essentially
colonial powers in Rohan, chasing out the Dunlendings-
which is why that folk helped Saruman.

From Robert Foster's the cpmplete guide to Middle-Earth:
I must say I've always been not unsympathetic to the
Dunlendings plight, reminiscent of North American and
Australian native peoples (but without the virtual genocide
conducted in those regions).

I'm not certain 'colonizers' would be the best classification for Rohan, and more specifically, Gondor. Gondor seemed to me to be more of a feudal Imperial power, receiving vassalage from the Rohirrim (who were originally colonists of Gondor, so to speak). In addition, they received tribute from various client nations (like Harad), and various lords had jurisdiction over pieces and parts of the realm (Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth, Faramir, Prince of Ithilien, etc.).

As I said, Rohan was originally a colony of Gondor, rather like when the English exported Scots Protestants to Northern Ireland, but they were autonomous. Perhaps a better analogy would be when the Roman Emperor gave the Goths an area already abandoned by the Romans to be their homeland (the Gondorions in effect gave Rohan land they could no longer control).

I suppose it is mildly interesting and typical of Tolkien that, while he mentions kingdoms and monarchs, he seems to avoid the C-word and the E-word. Is that simply a function of his debt to a medieval system of governance?

Tolkien I think was intentionally (or perhaps unintentionally) vague about a lot of things. There is little information about commerce outside of the Shire (like, who minted the currency for Sam to have silver pennies to buy Bill the horse?). What mentions there are of trade seem very rudimentary (Floating wine barrels down a river is no basis for a sound economy). And his quasi-medieval governmental structures do not advance beyond a very basic, conservative and one-dimensional view of the monarchy and the bare mention of feudal lords in vassalage to the king (even the Gondorion stewardship seems preposterous, given the hundreds of years of ruling stewards without a change in title or a palace coup).

And that, ladies and gentleman, is one of the few things that really irks me about Middle-earth chronology: its stagnance. Thousands of years without any real political or societal change (and it could be said that Gondorion rule was indeed Numenorean rule with only a change of the ruling seat). There is little change in technology (unless you refer to the numerous anachronisms in the Hobbit), and warfare does not advance along technological lines (like the absence of plate armor and the use of gunpowder only after 3 full Ages of Middle-earth history). The interminable stasis over many millenia for me seems rather unbelievable (and for a fantasy, suspension of disbelief is paramount).

I suppose I am nitpicking...but that's what Tolkien discussion forums (or fora) are for. If not here, where else?

How long did it take us humans to invent gunpowder?

But yes, that is good point. In fact, technology seems to have gone downhill (though in the early middle ages that did happen too).

Keep in mind that it took humanity about 4000 years from the first Pyramids in Egypt (27th century BC) to the use of gunpowder in Europe (about 13th century AD). With the first three ages lasting about 7000 years, that makes Middle-earth only about twice as stagnant as reality. ;)

Well, it is said that the Chinese invented gunpowder in the 9th Century. They also invented the compass, paper and printing long before the Western World. Yet Chinese culture, like western culture, also for a time 'stopped' developing new technology. Perhaps this is a feature of human cultures that Tolkien emulated (and drew out through the ages)? Did Egyptian and Indian cultures also experience this lack of technological development? (It didn't stop them from creating monumental structures of great power and beauty.)

The other point to consider is the stagnation of elven culture and the possibility that this influenced the cultures of Men and Hobbits and Dwarves. We don't hear of compasses or printing in Middle-earth and while hobbits and men do have books, we don't know what the pages consist of. Certainly the inferrence is that they are hand printed. All in all, Middle-earth is a world very circumspect of technology, as was Tolkien himself. It could possibly be argued that it is an alternate world view, just as we now have the genre of alternate histories.

EDIT: cross-posted with Macalaure. Oh that pesky interrrupting invention, the telephone.

Yes, yes...I am aware of the approximate differences in Middle-earth history as opposed to real-world history; however, the Elvish Culture, no matter how conservative and stagnant their society, should've blundered on inventions merely by continuous observation (a building block of the scientific method), that would be unavailable to pre-literate or early literate civilizations (such as the Sumerians or Egyptians), where the lifespan of a man/woman probably did not exceed 40 years (except for mythic 900 year-old biblical patriarchs). Additonally, the Elves, particularly the Noldor, had advanced training in Valinor very early on in their history (it's not like a centuries-long hit or miss method of discovering cuneiform for Hammurabi). Also, the dwarves, whose lifespans often hit the 300 mark, and were well known for their craftsmanship, commerce and business acuity, actually had their skills retard over time and continued puttering with mail.

All I'm saying is that one of Tolkien's strengths -- a great, sweeping panorama of time -- is also one of his weaknesses from a storyline perspective: an immense amount of time where basically nothing happens. Personally, I think a bit of time compression would have suited the plot better, or at least it would not have hurt the story and gave it more of a sense of believable continuity.

A few things I'd like to add...

Firstly, although I agree that the technological and cultural entropy of Tolkien's world is quite unrealistic, it is also very poetic and on the whole I thinks it adds rather than detracts from my enjoyment of his works. I quite like the idea of a golden age when the world was magical and mythical, when there was beauty and craftmanship unsurpassed, when the grass was greener, the sky more blue and the mountains taller and more majestic.

Secondly, there is in fact an indication of printing presses in the Shire as Bilbo is reading a newspaper when Galdalf first arrives although in truth JRRT would have regretted this anachronism later on when his legendarium became more developed.

Thirdly, while there are no guns in ME there are two instances in LotR where a form of gunpowder presumably is used. The first one is Gandalf's fireworks, the other one is during the siege of Helm's Deep (as seen in the movies).

I've also wondered why the likes of Melkor and Sauron couldn't or didn't help their minions develop better weaponry and such. The armies of the bad guys always seem to be have poorer equpiment than the good guys where IMO it should have been the opposite way around. Take Melkor for instance. He was said to have had a part of the gifts of all his Valar brethren and to have been the greatest of them all in terms of power, although much of it was later spent. His first priority would also have been to conjure up a way to win the war. I would think he should've had the brains to invent some decent weapons for his minions, such as the machinegun, the mustard gas or the anti-personel mine.

Well, that is a good point. Though If we're going on about no new technology, we must ask ouselves: What are the Rings of Power? What is the Ring? All technology. They weren't made in the "golden age". And I don't think the palantirs were either. And anyway, if we could go by the path of magic or technology, which would you go by? Many ancient civilisations wet for magic. It is only the ones that went for both (as they were so prosperous) that are remembered as "great". Whether their magic worked or not is another question. I don't believe it did, but that doesn't mean that didn't think it didn't, or that it was a pointless waste of time.
And all the people in positions to create better technology had magic. Take Gandalf ( he was a Maia, but anyway) for example. Insted of rubbing two sticks together (or later using a tinderbox) he could just make fire appear (and anyway, I think anyone, (well, maybe not anyone) could make fire wearing his ring) by saying a few words. No need to go through all the hassle of inventing matches and that sort of stuff (and later on, lighters- after all, he was immortal). And he would start a whole chemical industry, which somehow doesn't seem like the sort of person he is. And with a life of travelling (He was not called the Grey Pilgrim for nothing) how could he use an oven? Invention relies on those that have the knowledge of how to make something, and more importantly, having a reason to invent something like that, a driving need, or at least for the thing to have a purpose (especially very long ago). At leastthe person had to have an idea of something that had not yet been done, or as easily. It seems to me that a lighter is a step back from a ring that can allow you to make fire, never runs oout, and isn't bad for the environment (at least in the case of the ring itself). I just think that there was no need for him to make something for a purpose, when somethinng he already had could do it better.
Take Numenoreans. Men at their best. They would need to find some way to see and communicate with the rest of the world. They would be in a perfect postion to invent something But they already had the palantirs, which are still more advanced by anything we have. Hands-free :D.
Anyway, given the choice between magic and technology, I would go for magic. Much more immediate results. It either works or doesn't. Technology takes years for sometimes even the smallest part of an invention to be developed. And if all the "magic" was actually highly advanced technology, then who could hope to match that later on, and doesn't that prove that things were invented anyway?

The Rings were made by Sauron and Celebrimbor, a Maia and a 1st Age Elf, at the very beginning of the 2nd Age. Feanor made the Palantiri in the 1st Age. Perhaps because of the Rings, all attempts at new 'technology' among the Elves stopped for 2 Ages, and all efforts by Elrond and Galadriel went into conservation of what was prior to the Rings, and given their immortality, there was no need for biomedical advances or any research whatsoever. How boring it was to be an elf! Sauron dabbled in genetics, but little else, and as skip spence pointed out, he made no effort at all in improving his arsenal (technology should have been important to Sauron -- he might have been immortal, but his armies were shortlived and poorly clad).

Magic was innate in Middle-earth, either you had it or you didn't. Elves had it, dwarves basically lost it (according to Thorin and Gimli anyway), and men and hobbits never had it. Numenoreans tried a hand at geriatrics, or at least trying to find the fountain of youth in an alchemical sense, but failed, and their ships most likely were based on Teleri design, so they didn't do much technologically speaking.

Oh, and Macalaure, we forgot to add something in our discussion of real-world chronology as opposed to Middle-earth stagnance. The Real World had its Stone, Bronze, Iron and Steel Ages; whereas, the high cultures of Middle-earth went directly to steel and mithril (although limited in quantity).

Yep. The professor does put Middle-earth into the technological and cultural state he wants them in as quickly as possible - and then he doesn't let it go again.

It occurred to me that most technological advances aren't acquired by the slow process that we have in reality, but are taught or at least facilitated by people who already were advanced. We can assume that Elves and Men, when they appeared in Middle-earth, were at the level of hunter-gatherers. For the Elves, the Valar preempt their natural development and fast-forward them into the steel-age (although the Noldor surpassed them in some ways a little later). The same happens more or less when Men, especially the Edain, meet the Elves. The Numenoreans developed mostly on their own, but they're a case of intellectual mass-doping, so their results are invalid. The Rings of Power could not have been forged without the help of the Maia Sauron, and in the 3rd age, the only ones to use the mentioned gunpowder are the Maiar Gandalf and Saruman. When left to their own devices, most Middle-earthian cultures seem to either slowly deteriorate/stagnate after reaching an early (induced) peak (Eldar, Dunedain, the Dwarves, too), or progress incredibly slowly throughout (Avari, Easterlings).

The political/social stagnation is even more apparent. I mean, you can put all major events of the 3rd age into a few lines. Try to do that with real history.

I don't mean to criticise. Middle-earth is fine as it is. Who knows whether it would still be as appealing if it would feel more real and less mythological.

The evil side indeed completely stagnates technologically after the creation of the One Ring. Maybe the part of his power that Sauron put into his Ring was mostly brain power. ;)