Saruman appearing to the Three Walkers
 

Hello everyone, I'm really new (this is only my 3rd post!) so I hope this isn't one of those topics which has been beaten to death elsewhere. It's a pretty silly question but I'm curious.

In "The Two Towers" just after Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas encounter Eomer and are camping out in under the eaves of Fangorn, they see an old man very close to them who is wearing a hat and cloak and who vanishes without a trace when they try to speak to him; they decide that it must have been Saruman (wandering around and spying) and later when they meet up with Gandalf he says that it wasn't him, so it was probably Saruman. But later on when they're all at Orthanc, in the chapter "The Voice of Saruman" he gives no indication of knowing who the Three Walkers are or what they're after, so it seems rather pointless. If it really was Saruman, wouldn't he have tried a little harder to thwart them (doing more than just scaring off the horses) or at least indicated later that he had seen them? The whole incident is scary but seems rather pointless, unless I'm missing something.

So why didn't Saruman do more to them at the time, or at least indicate later that he knew them? Also, if he's able to disapparate like that, why didn't he just do that when the Ents stormed Isengard instead of just getting trapped in Orthanc? If you have any thoughts on any of these questions I'd really like to hear them. Thanks!

My memory is a little poor on this, but wasn't it revealed that Saruman wasn't actually there in body, but sent a ghost, or likeness (or something), of himself to observe the three, and that THING (whatever it was) did not have the power to do more than observe?

That wasn't such a silly question. I always thought that was a loose end myself.

When they finally do catch up with Gandalf in Fangorn, he indicates that it wasn't him they saw that night, so it may possibly have been Saruman. And who turned loose the horses?

Later the whole matter seems to have been dropped. I don't remember any explanation about Saruman having an "out-of-body" experience, either.

Thanks Birdland, it's nice to know I'm not the only who was wondering where the follow-through was on that scene. The idea of Saruman being able to send an out-of-body apparition to spy is one I like, but I can't help thinking he would have been more prepared for the Ent attack if he was able to do that; surely after Rohirrim slaughtered his Orc-band he would have been trying to find out as much as he could about what was happening in and around Fangorn, and realized that the Ents were restless, and also later that Theoden and company were coming. (After his staff is broken, of course, all bets are off).

Sigh. Back to tying up the loose ends on one of my own stories.

Kalimac, sweetie, are you Russian?
Per the apparition-when I first read that part, I was somehow convinced that it was Radagast, showing up randomly. Now I obviously realize that it wasn't so. Not that it wouldn't have been, uh, curious.

Radagast: What are you three doing here? Oh, you're on a quest to save Middle Earth? Isn't that nice. Well, good luck! And as for me, I guess I'll go and, uh, preoccupy myself with some useless task now.

I had always wondered about that too.

[ March 03, 2002: Message edited by: Gorin Icearms ]

Radagast! Hey, I like that! It would be very much in character for him to show up at an awkward moment (the way he bumped into Gandalf in FOTR) and then wander off oblivious to what was happening and nowhere to be found when things got hot. Probably the reason he didn't respond to Aragorn was that he was thinking "Whoa, I definitely apparated in the wrong place. Knew I should've taken the left turn at Mirkwood."

Lush: No, I'm not Russian [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] - ethnically I'm Ukrainian with some German thrown in, with the result being that when I was younger I learned the Cyrillic alphabet and some baby-vocabulary in Ukrainian but that was about it. When I got to college I decided I needed to learn a Slavic language properly, and the one they had was Russian, so I did that (for four years, one year in Moscow) and loved it. The problem is that right now there's no one to speak it to (everyone I know who does is prohibitively far away) so I'm reading like crazy to make up for it and keep my vocab from disintegrating.

There, that was probably more than anyone wanted to know, wasn't it [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. Anyway, there it is.

That's interesting Kalimac, because I am officially a Ukrainian citizen, and was born in Kiev. Though I tend to not draw distinctions between the Russians and the Ukrainians (unless we're talking the militant nationalistic types).
I wish it had been Radagast. Would have made for some good comic relief. And at that point in the book, I needed some!

I always thought (maybe I read this in LOTR) that Saruman ACTUALLY DID GO IN PERSON to the edge of Fangorn wood because he was so eager to get his hands on the hobbits and, he hoped, the ring.

I have this notion (I hope it's from the book) that Saruman was not exactly the most courageous wizard on the block, and faced with the Three Travelers, he would just as soon make it hard for them to go anywhere fast, knowing who they are. And as to not giving any indication at Orthanc, it's possible that Tolkien overlooked this, but I place my money on Saruman being at bay and not having the luxury of stopping in the middle of his carefully worded spell to say, "oh, oy, by the way, I know you three!"
[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Could have been Gandalf, Treebeard did see him before anyone else did, and G. barely remembered his own name at that point (was somewhat detached from earthly life at that moment). I think the horses pulled loose themselves when they heard Shadowfax.

But it would be just like Saruman to be too eager to check on his orcs' prize. Not much of a tactician. Remember how he emptied Orthanc and stood outside the gates watching his magnificent army go? Hid once the ents showed, made a break for his tower behind their backs.

Well I guess that clears that up. lol.

er ... thanks, Maril.

When the three travellers discuss who it was, Aragorn observes that, whilst there are stories of Saruman appearing as a hooded figure, the strange apparation they saw was NOT hooded, but wearing a hat. The fact this text is there appears seems to imply it wasn't Saruman. When Gandalf appears, it initially seemed obvious (to me) that the previous night's apparition was him, but he says not.

Perhaps this was deliberate obfuscation by Tolkien ... I suggest there are three main possibilities : -

1. It was Saruman. NO, Aragorn's observation counters that, and the subsequent text does not indicate that Saruman had any awareness of the travellers prior to their meeting 'in the flesh'.

2. It was Gandalf. This could be posited as one of those moments of Biblical allegory - a pre-resurrection signal. But NO, Gandalf's assertion that it wasn't him seems to take it away from being such a meaningful moment. And no-one else discusses it further following that. Alternatively, it was a premonition of Gandalf. YES, This fits, in that Gandalf would not necessarily know that the travellers had experienced a premonition. But it seems strangely insignificant a vision, and equally, the three don't have any other premonitions. The only other example of 'foresight' I can see is via the mirror of Galadriel.

3. It was just a moment of mystery from Tolkien, A little episode to illustrate the eerie and magical nature of Fangorn (and of Middle Earth as a whole). It's purpose, to bring a sense of magicality back, after the prosaic and sweaty chase of the Orcs. To signal a shift or broadening of the narrative atmosphere.

4. It was me, crossing the divide between fact and fiction through a wormhole of messianic self-importance (please note I said THREE possibilities).

... strange one. Ah well.

Peace

[ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: Kalessin ]

Personally, I thought it was very clear that Saroman was there in the flesh. The Two Towers, pg. 120 He was so eagar to lay his hands on his prey that he could not wait at home, and he came forth to meet and to spy on his messengers. But he came too late, for once,and the battle was over and beyond his help before he reached these parts. He did not stay here long.

Thanks, Greycloak.


Kalessin, I thought your analysis was clear and concise, even if I disagreed with it.
[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I must say that I do like the sense of magic Kalessin reminds us of.

One other thing to back up Greycloak: I think by the time Gandalf appears to the Three Travelers, he has already been brought by Gwaihir to Lorien and had counsel with Galadriel. So he already knew who he was. His mysterious words are meant, I think, to evoke more a sense of his raising to a new level of himself rather than not knowing who he was.

I go with the Gandalf proposition- I think it was Legolas who said that the horses sounded like they had met a long lost friend, so that wouldn't be Saruman.
There is a problem though: would Gandalf have been riding Shadowfax around if he was hazy on his identity? Why would he say he wasn't there if he was? (even if he didn't remember his identity, surely he would remember walking round in Fangorn).If it was Saruman, why did the horses sound as if they were glad to see him? Or, was it another Enigma (note the capital letter)? OR, was it a mistake, passed over in the editing process, and then retained in future editions because it was published before?
The final possibility is that it was Grima, prentending to be Saruman to get his kjollies, on the way back from meeting Saruman.

Weren't BOTH Gandalf and Saruman in the Forest that night?

i also do think that is was gandalf, riding shadowfax, who met aragorn, legolas, and gimli. shadowfax could not have been riden by anyone else (statd somewhere in the book) but gandalf, so that sorta cancels out the wormtongue idea. while wandering, gandalf could have been completly isolated mentally from everything around him. could he have known where he was going? maybe, maybe not. there are many things like this in lotr, little mysteries that seem odd and out of place.

But the old man did not appear on horseback. I believe Gandalf was in the forest leaving Shadowfax to roam in the grass. Simultaneously, Saruman came to Rohan looking for his orc forces.

What if it was some sort of home security system. Saruman could have set it up to scare off intruders.

But the Fangorn woods were not his home. Saruamn was tresspassing on Treebeard's lands.

Greycloak nailed it with his quote. I think it's Gandalf who speaks those words, is it not?

everyone else was trespassing as well. I have a feeling that Shadowfax was just exploring his territory, waiting for a summons from Gandalf. There is a small possibility that Legolas was wrong...

Yes, it was Gandalf who spoke those words, but wasn't he theorizing?

Yes, when I think back, it does seem like the horses pulled their pickets to join up with Shadowfax, and it was neither Saruman or Gandalf that led to their temporary loss.

Still up in the air about who the Three Walker saw, though.

I think that ist was Saruman. If I remember tight, the horses ran off with shadowfa, and were not actually scared off. Saruman was not looking for the walkers but a hobbit, they also had the grey cloks so maybe he didn't see them.

Yes, that was Gandalf talking to the three walkers. TTT pg 120 [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I always thought that it was Gandalf that appeared to the three walkers. He says it wasn't him becuase he had just turned into Gandalf the White at the time, and that was why the man was cloaked in white. However, didn't he say it wasn't him because they were all familiar with Gandalf the Grey, and he said to look at him as if he were the same person? Please, correct me if I am wrong.

I don´t think it was either Gandalf or Saruman in person, just because of the simple fact vanishing in thin air was not, in my opinion, one of the things they were capable of. Remember the Ring making its wearer invisible, that was a unique power.
But it could have been a so-called out of body apparition or ghost as mentioned above, but not put there on purpose by either Saruman (because he doesn´t recognize the Three Walkers) or Gandalf (because he says it wasn´t him they saw).
I kind of like the idea it was a vision created by Galadriel, either to warn them against Saruman or to make clear Gandalf had come back. Of course there is no evidence at all to back this up, but in various parts of the story it becomes clear Galadriel knows most of what happened/happens/is going to happen. And she has the greater power of mind as becomes clear in her meeting with the Company at Caras Galadhon, so maybe she was able to create some kind of an illusion...
Greetings, gildor

Gandalf when asked says (I think) "It certainly was not me", and if he lied it's the only time in LotR that I know of that Gandalf told a direct lie. he could have been being cagey, saying that it wasn't Gandalf the White, but I think it more likely was Saruman, looking for hobbits.

Gandalf was in the forest at some point also, and saw Treebeard, but I don't think that it was Gandalf who appeared to the three friends.

[ March 23, 2002: Message edited by: Turambar ]

The Three Walkers could have Sauruman, but it was Gandalf and Shadowfax that made the horses break their posts and join Shadowfax, hmmmmmmmm [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

I don't think Shadowfax would have feared Saruman. Shadowfax wouldn't have broken free of his bonds, carrying Arod & Hasufel with him, if it was Saruman appearing there. It was by seeing Gandalf, the only being who was able to tame him, that Shadowfax got excited.

Shadowfax breaking free of what bonds?

Shadowfax would never be tied up at a picket. He was wandering free, and the other horses sensed his presence and went to him. I don't think Saruman had anything to do with the horses deserting the Three Walkers.

Well, on second thought; maybe he did, but I bet he never expected them to find Shadowfax, and wind up coming straight back to their riders! (That was always Saruman's weakness, always underestimating smart creatures like Shadowfax and Treebeard.)

Oops! I read againt the escerpts concerning the event, and ineed no mention is made of the horses being tied to a picket or a tree. My fault! I'll be more careful next time. But my opinion still stands that it was Gandalf the White that appeared.

Interesting theories. When I first read it, I thought the old man was Saruman, coming in to spy on the travelers or looking for his Orcs. But on second thought, the old man could have been Gandalf, as mentioned before. After all, Gandalf had just been sort of...reincarnated as Gandalf the White, and no one had called him Gandalf in a very long time. People called him Mithrandir.
This is proof that perhaps he did not remember that he was called Gandalf. Also, as mentioned before, maybe he meant that it wasn't Gandalf the Grey they saw. Gandalf does that sometimes.

I agree with the horses' proof. The horses wouldn't have been greeting an old friend if it were Saruman who appeared; they greeted Shadowfax. So perhaps Gandalf called Shadowfax earlier that day, before the travelers entered, and he came that night.

It could have been Saruman, maybe sending out some sort of apparition, ghost thing to spy on the travelers too.

It's quite a debatable question.

Perhaps it was Shadowfax that the horses saw, and maybe Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli saw Gandalf, but he didn't see them, he was just wondering where Shadowfax had gotten to, that would be why he said it wasn't him, b/c he didn't know they saw him. I don't know, I'm probably wrong anyways.

The text makes it clear that both Gandalf and Saruman were present in Fangorn forest on the night in question. Greycloaks quote is helpful here.
We all know that Tolkien was extremely deliberate in his choice of words, so I looked in the TT to see if he used any adjectives to describe both the
mysterious "old man" and either Saruman or
Gandalf. I believe I found a deliberate clue
that Tolkien placed in the narrative to establish the identity of this "old man".

Quote: "...there just on the edge of the firelight stood an old bent man, leaning on a staff, and wrapped in a great cloak..."

When Gandalf appears the next morning he is described as "...the old man. All in dirty grey rags" A few pages later he is described as wearing a "grey cloak." It may be that Tolkien deliberately avoids describing Gandalf's cloak as a great cloak. However he later describes Saruman as wearing just such a garment.

TT chapter X Saruman is described as being "swathed in a great cloak."

He also describes the old man as leaning upon a "staff" (no modifier), but describes Gandalf as leaning on a "rough staff". Once again it's possible that Tolkien was trying to draw a distinction here between "Gandalf" and our mysterious "old man".
Saruman's staff is simply described as Black. However one would not be able to tell the color of a staff at night.

However we still have the problem of the hat. Eomer describes Saruman as "hooded and cloaked". But the old man is wearing a wide brimmed hat like Gandalf

Tell me what you all think.

[ September 09, 2002: Message edited by: Ent Hugger ]

Greetings and solutions, Ent hugger! Welcome to the Downs! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Back to the subject:

Aha! I got the idea from (I think) FotR, from Gandalf, when he said: 'there are many magic rings in this world, and none of them should be taken lightly.' my impression was that a lot of other 'magic rings' also had the capability of turning its wearer invisible.
Of course, there is another thing: Why would Gandalf wear a magic ring? That is not his style (I think). Perhaps Saruman would wear a magic ring? I think it is pausible, he messes with other stuff.
just a thought, otherwise I am clueless. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]
~M

Morquesse! Gandalf did wear a magic ring.....
Although, it was not said if it could render him invisible.

Only the one part of the night riddle was solved - That the horses might have been scared away by Saruman, and that they met up with Shadowfax, and so, were not lost.

Aragorn also makes a comment about Gandalf's talent at getting places. If Gandalf could travel faster than Aragorn, certainly he would use his powers to get there. Saruman would also be granted this...but Gandalf does not seem to like to use 'magic' to get from place to place. He prefers the physical...Shadowfax. Gandalf stays with the group, never leaving them unless dire need called him away. Gandalf is the guardian of all in this tale. If he were not there, the quest would surely have failed.

Morquesse,
Did the mysterious old man really
disappear? He was standing "Just on the edge
of the firelight" Couldn't he have merely
stepped back, and escaped through stealth,
rather than magic.
Tolkien attributes very specific magical discipnes to the Istari (five wizards). Gandalf mastered
fire, Saruman had the power of his voice and
Radagast is "a master of shapes and changes of hue, and has much lore of herbs and beasts".
However, if Gandalf is any gauge, they appear to possess a vast repetoire of worldly skills. IE Horsemanship, navigation, diplomacy, linguistics, swordsmanship, Strategy, Heraldry etc... In fact Gandalf
appears to possess any skill he might need to complete his appointed mission. And we should assume that the other Istari do as well, as they are supposed to share that mission.
Would not stealth be a valuable skill, if not more-so a necessary one, for these Wizards who have been placed in the world to face the most dangerous times and circumstances?
And in truth, how hard is it really to slip from view in the woods at night, particularly when the people you are trying to avoid are sitting beside a campfire?

As for my post on this thread on Sep. 8 2002 9:11pm, "grey cloak vs great cloak" my argument there is a bit specious. Attribute it to lack of sleep, and over-enthusiasm. I ask that everyone kindly disregards, unless of course this leads you to some interesting course of inquiry.

[ September 09, 2002: Message edited by: Ent Hugger ]

Let's assume that Gandalf didn't lie, but could it be that he wasn't teling the exact truth? Wizards are skilled with words.

Gandalf's exact words were: " You certainly didn't see me, therefor I must guess you saw Saruman" Mind that he doesn't declare he wasn't there. Perhaps he was. But as the Companions couldn't expect ever to meet him again (believing he was dead) they just saw an old man, presumably Saruman. They didn't see Gandalf in that old man at the time. Perhaps that's what Gandalf was saying.

So what I was trying to sayis that it was definitely Gandalf who had appeared before the companions, but for some reason he didn't want to admit that he had been around.

If Saruman really was there, he should've tried deceiving the three... after all he was good at that kind of thing!!!! Maybe that wasn't him, or that was just a sort of hAllUcInATioN of the Walkers....