The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - Why did Iluvatar allow aule to create the dwarves

The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/index.php)

- The Books (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/forumdisplay.php?f=9)

- - Why did Iluvatar allow aule to create the dwarves (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1469)

Why did Iluvatar allow aule to create the dwarves

The Creation of Dwarves
In the Silmarillion it is said that Aule created the dwarves, and it is said that Iluvatar knew what was being done. If he knew what was bieng done then surely he shuld have stopped it. Did he maybe have a special relationship with Aule which I may have missed? I am very fond of Dwarves but surely if Iluvatar didn't want any other creatures than his own to be on Middle Earth then surely he would have stopped Aule?

Iluvatar knew that Dwarves would be required to lend some style to the proceedings.

He also probably thought that teaching Aule some further lessons in humility would be an added benefit for allowing him to create beings of such class. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Yes this is a very good point, but would Iluvatar have reacted in the same way if it was any of the other Valars who had created the Dwarves?

He did stop it-for a while. But since he saw that they had life and being of their own, he said he would let them awaken after his children awoke. There you have it. If i was a vala i couldnt of asked for much better, and i think all of them would be treated the same.

But remember, Each of the Valar is made from a part of Iluvatar's mind. When they sang ere the world was created, each was singing from a different part of Iluvatar's brain. That's why only when they started singing all together could the world be formed, as all of iluvatar's mind was focused on it.

This means that Aule is part of Iluvatar, and so when he made the dwarves, although he made them at his own discretion, it was a part of Iluvatar making them. If Iluvatar destroyed them, it would be like destroying his grand-children.

Actually I dont think I explained that too well...not his grandchildren, just...a part of himself. He wouls be destroying something that he had inadvertantly made.

Yes but did Iluvatur not want all creations on middle earth to be made purely by him and not inadvertatnly. Granted Aule was like a part of him doing a job but it does not make the dwarves 100% his creation.
But your point is very valid and I see how it could be a reason why Iluvatur has allowed the dwarves to be.

Quote:

Yes but did Iluvatur not want all creations on middle earth to be made purely by him and not inadvertatnly.

I don't think that either 1. Iluvatar wanted all creations to be made by him or 2. the creation of the Dwarves can be considered inadvertant. If 1, then what about the crafts of the Elves? Iluvatar certainly allowed the Teleri to build ships, the Noldor to make gems, etc. As for 2, the creation of the Dwarves was very intentional on the part of Aule. I think that because Aule did this with good will, Iluvatar offered a sort of grace to him and the Dwarves. I think we can take an Augustinian view of things and say that the important thing concerning Aule's making of the Dwarves was his intention rather than his action.

The Valar, Maiar, and the Children of Iluvatar did alot of foolish things that Eru did not stop. They were all creations that had independent wills, but...

From Ainulindale:

Quote:

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument, in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.

As for the Dwarves...

Quoted from letter 212:

Quote:

The One rebuked Aule, saying that he had tried to usurp the Creator's power; but he could not give independent life to his makings. He had only one life, his own derived form the One, and could at most only distribute it. 'Behold' said the One: 'these creatures of thine have have only thy will and thy movement. Though you have devised a language for them, they can only report to thee thine own thought. This is a mockery of me.'
Then Aule in grief and repentance humbled himself and asked for pardon. And he said: 'I will destroy these images of my presumption, and wait upon thy will.' And he took a great hammer, raising it to smite the eldest of his images; but it flinched and cowered from him. And as he with withheld his stroke, astonished, he heard the laughter of Iluvatar.
"Do you wonder at this?' he said. 'Behold! thy creatures now live, free form thy will! For I have seen thy humility, and taken pity on your impatience. Thy making I have taken up into my design.'

I think that Iluvatar was quite pleased that Aule decided to make the dwarves, because it gave him the chance for him to divulge another part of his mind -humilty. I think that because Iluvatar saw that Aule was so ready to smite his creations for him, that this was something he saw as positive, and so granted the dwarves life as a reward. does anyone know where the other 6 fathers of the dwarves (besides durin the deathless) went?

On the principles of 'sucreation'...

Letter No. 153

Quote:

To conclude: having mentioned Free Will, I might say that in my myth I have used 'subcreation' in a special way (...) to make visible and physical the effects of Sin or misused Free Will by men. Free Will is derivative, and is.'. only operative within provided circumstances; but in order that it may exist, it is necessary that the Author should guarantee it, whatever betides : sc. when it is 'against His Will', as we say, at any rate as it appears on a finite view. He does not stop or make 'unreal' sinful acts and their consequences. So in this myth, it is 'feigned' (legitimately whether that is a feature of the real world or not) that He gave special 'sub-creative' powers to certain of His highest created beings: that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be given the reality of Creation. Of course within limits, and of course subject to certain commands or prohibitions. But if they 'fell', as the Diabolus Morgoth did, and started making things 'for himself, to be their Lord', these would then 'be', even if Morgoth broke the supreme ban against making other 'rational' creatures like Elves or Men. They would at least 'be' real physical realities in the physical world, however evil they might prove, even 'mocking' the Children of God. They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.) But whether they could have 'souls' or 'spirits' seems a different question; and since in my myth at any rate I do not conceive of the making of souls or spirits, things of an equal order if not an equal power to the Valar, as a possible 'delegation', I have represented at least the Orcs as pre-existing real beings on whom the Dark Lord has exerted the fullness of his power in remodelling and corrupting them, not making them. That God would 'tolerate' that, seems no worse theology than the toleration of the calculated dehumanizing of Men by tyrants that goes on today. There might be other 'makings' all the same which were more like puppets filled (only at a distance) with their maker's mind and will, or ant-like operating under direction of a queen-centre.

This is most definitely an extension of the thought Tolkien put into the quotes given above by thorondil. Aule's decision to create and Iluvatar's decision to allow such a creation to live independently can be put into perspective while reading these comments. Iluvatar allowing the dwarves to stay (and even giving them life) made them part of his world; subsequently, they obtained ultimate goodness.

[ November 24, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]