Elrond's big mistake?
 

I was just wondering if anyone else thought of this - Elrond tells frodo when he is at rivendell to look for Bilbo the next year in the fall, right?

Well by my calculations(and I did doublecheck them with the Appendices) It had to be two years till Frodo left. But Bilbo was already packing two years earlier.

Well, I guess the amount of time Bilbo spent sleeping would explain the premature packing - but what about the wise Elrond's little slip?

Interesting, I must say. I never noticed that...and I don't think many others will have either. Does it say next fall in your book???? Or next autumn?

actually it says something like "when the leaves are gold, at this time of the year"
I was just talking about the point of the sentence - not exact wording

well, actually Elrond doesn't say anything like "next year". the words of Elrond are some kind of invitation and reminder that Frodo is welcome to travel to Valinor with them (sure he knew that Arwen had given 'her place' to Frodo) and the words just told that the leaving will be after summer when everybody is ready to leave. they had maybe agreed about the leaving date later but they wanted to leave in the fall(was Cirdan bilding a ship for them, or something...)
i just can't see any contradiction here.

there is no mention of concrete date, as dancing spawn of ungoliant rightly observed, but I do not think there was special agreement between Frodo and Rivendell dwellers afterwards. Being Ring-Bearer and keen sighted after his journeys, he (I beleive) just felt when the time to leave was come

As for packing mentioned, it did no concern Bilbo's journey to Valinor, but to Aragorn's wedding in spring 1419 S.R.

[ July 09, 2003: Message edited by: HerenIstarion ]

Who says that? That doesn't make any sense. Frodo was a ringbearer, he had a place reserved anyway. Bilbo was one, too. I don't think that Arwen gave her place to Frodo.

in RotK, chapter 6 Arwen says that she gives to Frodo a gift. She is Elrond's daughter but she isn't going to Valinor 'cause she has made same choice as Lúthien.(and here it comes..)Arwen says that Frodo can go in place of her if he wants to.

my noble part in this thread is to provide the quotes, seemingly [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

yep [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
i couldn't quote that myself since i don't have LotR in english...thank you, HerenIstarion!

Hello my good people!

I think this quote can be read otherwise. From what I thought after reading LotR the gift to Frodo is the white medaillion she gave him for great pains. I remember him wearing it when he was ill in April and in October, clutching it with his hand. If it had any powers against his illness I don't know and that would be rash to conclude.

The reason he was going to Valinor was because of him being a Ring-bearer. Otherwise I can't see why Bilbo and Sam were permitted to go as well, for I don't know anybody else who made the same choice as Arwen in that time, so no one should be able to give their places to them.

It's another thought on the subject, but that's what discussing is about, ain't it? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

greetings,
lathspell

*waves at lathy*

Though I doubt she was required to give her place to Frodo in order for him to go, she was allowed to do so, and did out of generosity. Gifts sometimes carry more grace than earned rights, and him going in her stead would be symbolic, and no more.

I do believe that such gifts are not measured in numbers, meaning there is no necessity to exchange places one to one, so Arwen's one ticket would be exchanged for two tickets for Frodo and Bilbo. Anyways permission of the Valar was to be obtained, but that does not eliminate symbolism and meaning of Arwen's gift. For Valar like ceremonies and rituals as far as I can guess, so willing 'middlewomanhood' (if I am permitted to coin such a word) of Arwen's was as a necessary starting point to grant Ring-Bearers' desire to pass into the West

cf how Gimli (supposedly, for it is not stated directly) goes to Aman:

Three mandatory requirements - Eldar should be willing to receive a mortal, Valar should permit it, and some intermediary of 'political weight and power" should obtain such a permit

I reckon same principle is at work with Bilbo and Frodo, and grace, though deserved, is obtained via Arwen's parting gift


cf also:

"I take it as a wergild for my father and brother" of Isildur's. Some ground for claim is always needed, and Bearers claim to pass into the West is thus supported by Arwen's gift, as was said above already.

As for Sam, there is also no direct statement of his leaving ME:

Mere tradition of Fairbairns, no more (though mo less)

Perhaps what ultimately happened to Sam was that he made his way to the edge of the Sea, and died there, looking out across the great distance that separated him and his Master Frodo. It never says that he sailed West, but if he had died at the edge of the Sea, then the Fairbairns could have assumed that he sailed West. It's quite sad really. I can imagine Sam's body carried off by the waves, and ultimately washing up on the shores of Aman at Frodo's feet. In death, he was finally reunited with his beloved Frodo. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

I think that in the Letters (I don't remember in which one) Tolkien says that Sam went to the Undying Lands.
In this case, I think that the gift of Arwen, as HerenIstarion has pointed out, could have been extended not only to Bilbo but to all Ring-bearers, and that would include Sam [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Frodo also assumed that Sam might some day pass over the Sea to the Undying Lands:
--------------------------------------------

"Where are you going, Master?" cried Sam, though at last he understood what was happening.

"To the Havens, Sam," said Frodo.

"And I can't come."

"No, Sam. Not yet, anyway, not further than the Havens. Though you too were a Ring-bearer, if only for a little while. Your time may come."
--------------------------------------------
I think that the preponderance of the evidence is that Sam did eventually go to the Undying Lands. I've speculated to myself that, to Frodo, time would barely seem to pass before he was re-united with Sam; and that once he was there, a very old man, there would be little reason for them to linger, and so they would pass on together to wherever Rosie awaited them. But that's a topic for another thread...

I will go on providing you with quotes [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

from the letter to Naomi Mitchinson (L154 25 September 1954)

italics mine

Thank you for the quote HerenIstarion [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I did a quick search but I couldn't find the letter [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

From the quote, it seems clear that the gift of Arwen was only given to Frodo, and not to the rest of the Ring-bearers (although I liked that theory [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] ).

As you pointed out before:

Then the question is: who was the intermediary for Bilbo and Sam? Maybe Elrond? Or Gandalf?

I think Gandalf was their intermediary. Also, they gave their lives for the Quest. Although it doens't seem like that, Bilbo did great things, things that he wasn't compelled to do. He could have just sat at home and refused to go on the expedition with the Dwarves. Sam could have sat at home and not gone with Frodo. After all, Rosie, his beloved, was at home, why did he leave her? He knew that there was a possiblity of failure for the Quest. He knew that he might die. But he still went. That selflessness was rewarded by permission to sail West.