Gandalf in the 2nd Millennium of the Third Age
 

In the Istari in the Unfinished Tales Tolkien says of Gandalf that
but in fact I cannot find anything on him during that period. Tolkien goes on to suggest that
Earlier in the same tale, Tolkien says that Gandalf
which presents the new (to me) information that somehow Gandalf had visited Angmar. It seems reasonable that if he did so, this was done in the Second Millennium when the Witch King was there. It also telling that he apparently went to and fro in "various guises", which suggests to me the possibility that he was actually in disguise (and this may have been how he was able to enter Dol Goldur twice).

The suggestion of disguises also has me thinking of Aragorn in the service of Thengel and Ecthelion. It is not clear where Aragorn came up with the idea of going in disguise, but later discussion in the Palantiri suggests that perhaps this had to do with the sensitivity to a (eventual) pretender to the throne, at least in Gondor. It is possible that Gandalf suggested this course of action to Aragorn, since the two met shortly before Aragorn departed on his twenty year "errantries". My thoughts are that perhaps Gandalf took this idea from his own role in the Second Millennium.

What role or guise he might have had in this period is not clear, but one thought was that Malbeth the Seer was in fact Gandalf. Any arguments for or against this?

Hmm...off the top of my head I think I recall Malbeth collapsing and dying after making the prophecy about the Dead and the one who can command them? Sorry, I haven't read the books for a long time and don't have them on me at the moment, so that's the best argument I can offer up against Gandalf being Malbeth the Seer. An interesting theory though, I've never heard it before and who knows, maybe there are arguments that can lend credence to it. However, I personally doubt it.

You raise an interesting point about what Gandalf was doing throughout that 'quieter' period. I would've loved to see the wily old wizard at work using his Ring and his natural charisma to stir up hope in the hearts of Elves and Men again- a pity Tolkien never expounded upon this (except for the conversation between Gandalf and Thorin).

It is a new idea indeed that Malbeth may have been Gandalf. I think we know next to nothing about Malbeth, save that he was present in Fornost at Ardedui's birth, had easy access to the King and was much respected.
Yet, the noble Dunedain could very well have prophetic visions of their own (as did Aragorn before Moria). Prophesy was not restricted to Maiar.

Ok, now firstly to Malbeth.

I personally doubt it was Gandalf, we would have probably known that or Tolkien would have hinted towards it with some other acts of magic by Malbeth.

What he is most surely in my opinion is of Numenorean descent, simply by looking at his age.

He made the first prophecy in 1864 (according to HoME the birth year of Arvedui) and the second during Arvedui's reign, meaning after 1964. That is a hundred years span, surely showing that Malbeth had Numenorean blood.
But don't try and use his age as an argument for him being Gandalf, it was actually a normal thing, since for example Araphant, Arvedui's father lived 175 years, so it's ok for Malbeth to have made the prophecies 100 years or more apart.


Ok, now with that finished, let's take a closer look at Gandalf and what he did all that time.

There is, as far as I am aware of, one single more clear hint as to what Gandalf did all that time between discovering the shadow over Mirkwood around 1100 and 2060 when the Wise realised it might be Sauron over there in Dol Guldur.
But, it only remains a hint and nothing clear is stated:

It's only something assumed and although it makes sense, it cannot be proven to be true, that is certain.

We must simply believe what is said, that

Concerning the area he walked it, two quotes are of interest:

As to what he exactly did, well:

He may have attempted to gain the Haradrim on his side, with little success though as it seems, maybe a mission similar to that of the Blue Wizards in the far east.

Anyway he does not seem to have lingered there long, perhaps because he was received poorly and people did not trust him over Sauron.

He appears to have neglected Gondor, though as seen above he did probably visit it or at least pass through it at times:

So, all in all, I'd say he just wondered around, mostly in the west and the north-west amongst Elve, Men and Hobbits, all hostile to Sauron's darkness and tried to help and counsel them as he could, whilst he was gathering information about the shadow in the east. It appears clear that he was not expecting Sauron, this idea was first mentioned in 2060, but he may have built up a case to convince the Wise of the importance of an attack.

Lastly, I support the idea that Gandalf as a life-long traveller gave some tips to Aragorn before he set of on his own adventures in the wild of Middle-earth and perhaps also gave him the idea of using a false identity to hide his heritage. However, both this and any suspicion about some encounter with the Witch-king are plausible, but cannot be proven true with quotes from the texts.

That is all! :D

There is one quote in the LOTR drafts that may suggest the previous encounters of Gandalf and the Witch-King
Also, in the "Hunt for the Ring" texts the Witch-King seems to know about Gandalf and his powers:
.
It is unclear, however, whether the WK knows Gandalf from personal experience, or heard about him from Sauron.

Although one cannot provide as clear a date as one can with the example you mentioned, still it seems that Gandalf visited Angmar, as I mentioned above in the quote. I guess this could have been in the Third Millennium, but I don't really see why he would have done so after Angmar was no longer a threat.

Also not discussed as much is the quote about Gandalf going in very guises. This suggests to me that he did not always venture forth as Gandalf himself, which might also explain the lack of records on him in the Second Millennium...

Mmm, that quote from HoMe VIII is nice, but it does not prove that Gandalf ever went to Angmar.
Another possibility would be that Gandalf was present when Black Uruks from Mordor attacked Osgiliath in 2475 and where Boromir I resisted furiously being feared even by the Witch-king. Maybe Gandalf was there, perhaps in some guise, why not, and that is where he learned of the Witch-king, perhaps had to flee. Same would go as an explanation for why the WK also saw Gandalf as a strong foe.

What I am trying to say is - of course your ideas are plausible, but so is that written above, there are no concrete things we learn about it, all is speculation.

And yes, I agree that Gandalf's guises are a good explanation for this lack of knowledge.

Well, it proves it to my satisfaction. I read it as a point blank statement by Tolkien.

On the other hand, the other things are speculative at best...

It indicates that the Weathertop was not the first occasion when Gandalf had to flee from the WK. It is not said that it had been in Angmar, though.

On the other hand, in the quote you have posted, this one:
Carn Dûm is mentioned as a place where Gandalf had been. Carn Dûm is Angmar's capital (The men of Carn Dûm came on us at night, and we were worsted) and it is situated in northern Angmar. It seems that it was the WK who built Carn Dum around TA 1300, and after the defeat of Angmar in TA 1975 Carn Dum ceased to exist: either it was abandoned or destroyed. Thus visiting Carn-Dum was only possible while the WK ruled Angmar. Naturally, Gandalf went there is disguise, but it is likely that he was forced to flee.

I don't think it possible that Gandalf, so tightly connected as he was with the North of Middle Earth and the Elves of Rivendell, had no interest in the evil land of Angmar and its sorcerer King. After all, in 1409 Rivendell had been besieged by Angmar! I don't believe Gandalf only learned about the WK after the nazgul's relocation to Minas Morgul.

It is speculation, but based on some quotes.;)

And also this quote, which I offer now in fuller form from page 3 of The Istari (Unfinished Tales) :

Speculation based on quotes is speculation nonetheless.

Speaking of Carn Dum, I believe I made a mistake in that last post. What I meant under "never went to Angmar" was actually never confrontated the W-k in the North.
Why are we not told of any special helper? Only because of his guise? At least Elves could have pierced through it, Glorfindel may have realised who Gandalf was if he was wondering about in that time.

That is the problem I have with these ideas - there is no foundation, no hints of any Maiarian activity. And as much as Gandalf may have liked guises we do see that when it came down to battle he did not hide himself.

Not sure what you are referring to here, but the fact that he went to Angmar is not speculation.

Otherwise, the hope was that perhaps somebody came across some other passage somewhere that would move the other issues beyond speculation.

There doesn't appear to be any question that, at some time, Gandalf traveled to Angmar, but there is also little question, I think, that he did not engage the Witch King in any direct manner. In LotR, "The Siege of Gondor," when Gandalf tells Denethor that the WK has come and mastered the outer walls of Minas Tirith, it is said:

To me, this says beyond question that Gandalf and the WK had never faced off against one another. If Gandalf traveled in Angmar during the WK's reign, I suspect it was to gather information that could be used to aid the cause of those who opposed him, and Sauron.

Yes, certainly we would have heard about a direct matchup of the two in the Second Millennium. Gandalf seemed to rely on disguises to enter these areas--he certainly did when he went into Dol Goldur in 2850. So apparently he went in and out of Angmar (like Dol Goldur) without revealing his identity...

But was not the Witch King at the battle between Gandalf and the Nazgul at Weathertop? The description of events given by Gandalf at The Council of Elrond (Fellowship of the Ring) says
and then that when he himself (Gandalf) reached Weathertop
I suppose one could argue that the WK was not there, but then Gandalf says (as an explanation of why he did not remain) that

The Witch-King certainly was among those who besieged Gandalf at Weathertop. The scene is described in Marquette MSS 4/2/36 "the Hunt for the Ring" published in RC p.167-8.

Now to the quote given by Ibrin("But our trial of strength is not yet come." ).
I think we must distinguish between the passing confrontations the WK and Gandalf have had before and the real "trial of strength", a fight to death that was about to happen at the Gates of Minas Tirith.

Gandalf the Grey had limitations imposed by the Valar :
So to go to Carn-Dum, find its King and try to kill him in a direct duel would have been strongly against the rules. All Gandal'f did at Weathertop and likely in similar situations before, was defend himself, when attacked, and then withdraw at the first opportunity. It was never a real "trial of strength".

In the same, almost anonymous, way Gandalf took part in battles. For instance in the battle of the Five Armies Gandalf was even wounded in the arm (see "the Hobbit"), but nothing about his part in the battle found its way into the "Tale of Years". He was there, but he was not in command, he displayed no supernatural powers, confronted no enemy commanders. This example shows that Gandalf may well have been say in the Battle of Fornost or in the battle of the Camps etc, without it being mentioned in the chronicles. Gandalf the Grey had been a self-effacing guy, always there somewhere in the background.

But that modus operendi changes when Gandalf turns the White. To start with, he shows his power to Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli, a thing that G the Grey had never done before. He assumes the command of the defense of Minas Tirith; in an open display of power Gandalf chases the nazgul attacking Faramir, and, finally, he openly challenges the enemy commander, the Lord of the Nazgul, the right hand of Sauron.

To me it seems that most of the limitations originally imposed on Gandalf the Grey by the Valar were lifted by Eru, when Gandalf was sent back. It is never told directly, IIRC, but it seems to be the case.

I think it might also be possible that during the siege at Weathertop, the WK operated by Sauron's "wisdom," driving his men (such as they are) from behind rather than leading the fray, and he simply never got to the front before the confrontation ended, or truly entered into direct combat with Gandalf. Perhaps he considered himself a much better tactician/strategist, and felt the strength of the others would be adequate to the situation while he directed their efforts.

Well, it's a thought. :)

I would agree with this--it seems Gandalf was defending himself and the Witch King was hanging back. For all of the pumping up of the Witch King (too many viewings of the movies), he hangs back or retreats most of the time (Glorfindel drove him off the bridge a few days later).

So I took Gandalf's statement that the trial of strength was yet to come as an accurate description of his and the WK's history. As you mentioned, Gandalf was expressly forbidden from taking a more aggressive role when he was Gandalf the Grey--the situation does seem to change when he comes back as Gandalf the White (which Denethor evidently does not appreciate).

The WK certainly operated by Sauron's "wisdom," so praised by Denethor, when he had orcs to spare as "cannon-fodder". But in all fairness, we don't have a single occasion when he had done the same to his fellow nazgul. Among the Nine, he was always at the forefront.

It was the WK who "swept away" the Rangers at the ford, it was the WK+2 others who guarded the borders of the Shire and Bree-Land against the possible attack by Elves or Rangers (RC).

At Weathertop there were five nazgul: two remained at the lip of the dell, three advanced on the being who wore the One Ring - which was, by the way, almost a sacrilege for a nazgul - see Letter 246: . When Frodo bared his perilous for the nazgul Barrow-blade, burning red in the Spirit World, two nazgul stopped, and it was only the WK who dared attack Frodo.

At the Ford of Bruinen, the WK was foremost across it, followed by two others, while the rest remained on the safe bank.
At the Pelennor, the WK was at the gates alone, while he could easily bring the rest of the nazgul with him. Same when he attacked Theoden (and that self-assurance had proved his undoing).

So, I don't see the WK remaining in the background while sending the weaker nazgul to fight Gandalf.

Also I don't see the "siege" of Weathertop as plain swordfight. I don't think the enemies even came into direct contact - likely it was a magick battle with lightnings etc., where only the WK was able to match Gandalf's magick (or attempt to). The objective of the nazgul was to drive Gandalf away, preventing him from joining the company with the Ring, not to kill him at all costs. This objective they had fulfilled. I think it was evident for the nazgul that they could only kill Gandalf at the cost of some of their own lives, and they were not ready to pay such price.

I don't think the WK was hanging behind the other Nazgul, and he was certainly ready to advance when the opponents were much weaker than himself. But he did withdraw on several occasions, the first being the time in the Second Age when Glorfindel drove him off, and then again when Glorfindel drove him off the bridge.

I agree that the attack of the Nine on Weathertop did not involve an all out fight, which as you say may have ended in several participants not surviving, but at least 4 of the Nazgul did follow Gandalf, so I think it was something beyond just driving him off Weathertop. Initially all of the Nine withdrew when Gandalf appeared during the daylight, but of course only the WK had anything resembling his normal power under these circumstances.

Recall also that later Gandalf drove off the Nazgul on the Fields of Pelennor when they chased Faramir and his company. The final faceoff was to come at the Gates of the City, where Peter Jackson has interpreted (incorrectly, IMO) the matchup as turning in the favor of the WK. Another argument would suggest that the WK here again felt himself overmatched, otherwise why not finish Gandalf when he had the chance. I suspect it would have been quite a battle, partly because the WK's power had been augmented by Sauron, but then again Gandalf had apparently been augmented as well with his return

The Witch-King advanced even when the opponents were stronger (like Gandalf) or could present a good challenge (like Earnur, who was the best fighter in Gondor - and note: it was before Glorfindel's prophecy). Frodo as well, as weak as he may have seemed, was not an easy opponent: a nazgul had to have enough guts to attack the wielder of the One Ring. Moreover Frodo had a special blade - for the nazgul he was like a small, deadly poisonous viper.

Indeed, the WK always retreated before Glorfindel, but then again he never sent weaker nazgul to try their hand against the Elf Lord. All the Nine retreated before Glorfindel, because of his special powers in the Unseen, I guess.

The reason given in the Hunt for the Ring is this: There was a possibility that Gandalf would lead them to the Ring.

It would have been quite a battle with uncertain result and a good possibility of being fatal for both opponents. I guess the WK felt himself overmatched, but couldn't withdraw because Sauron was watching him. He took the first opportunity to excuse himself. But still, again, he didn't summon the other nazgul to help him.

Neither do I, given the description of the flashes of light and apparent scorch-marks on the hilltop. In that instance, I suspect the Nazgul were not interested in killing Gandalf, but in capturing him, or -- possibly more likely -- provoking him into running to protect whoever had the Ring so that they might follow. I strongly suspect they never got within fifty feet of each other. But I still have a feeling that the Witch King would happily throw his fellow Nazgul under the bus, if it came to a "me or them" situation. :)

I don't even want to think about the confrontation at the gate. Jackson's version of it has left a rather disgusting goo in my brain for years. :rolleyes:

Can't disagree with anything in the two posts above, with the possible exception of Earnur's retreat from the Witch King. I read Earnur's flight as actually due to his horse, in fact it is said:
As we seea few years later when he goes to take the challenge of the WK, Earnur was brave to the point of being foolhardy, so one would not have expected him to flee willingly.

But as you say, the Nazgul mission at Weathertop was to retrieve the Ring, so a battle with Gandalf was not really to their advantage here.

On the subject of Gandalf again, I am also struck by some remarks by Aragorn as they are entering Moria that suggest that perhaps Gandalf had been up to more than we know in the past

That is what I meant: Earnur was a worthy opponent for the WK, certainly not an easy kill - but the WK didn't hesitate to challenge him to a duel in the battle of 1975. The Nazgul Lord did have courage.

Ha- nazgul psychology question! :eek: We really know next to nothing about the nazgul interrelationships...

What we see in the "Hunt for the Ring" (RC), is that whenever a lesser nazgul has problems, is upset, or uncertain what to do, his first impulse is to go report to the WK/ to cry on his shoulder;), abandoning his assigned tasks. This attitude of the subordinates irritates the Captain.

When the Captain himself is upset (like after Weathertop), he doesn't go to the others seeking sympathy, but hides to suffer alone, and reappears only after he feels OK again. The others, meanwhile, do nothing on their own:
Actually, I guess, it is a normal attitude of a commander of a small close-knit group, don't you think?

This is precisely what is so intriguing about Tolkien. His story is so vast, yet there are always vistas further off that we yearn to see up close. I'd love to read a complete history of Gandalf's travels, just as I would like to hear more of Aragorn as Thorongil (written by Tolkien, and not in a fan-fic, of course).

*sniffs*

Alas, alack, the professor aint comin' back!