Firiel...
 

the "protagonist" (if the main character in a poem can be called that) of "The Last Ship". What exactly is happening in this poem? We know from the book (LOTR) that mortals are only allowed to sail West with Tolkien's Elves if they have special permission, as Frodo did. So what I don't understand is why the Elves in this poem ask an "ordinary" human girl to sail West with them. Even though this poem is much older than Tolkien's ideas of Elves in LOTR.. and he wanted to make it "fit in", it doesn't make much sense, either here or in the original 1934 version... which I found in another messageboard. Anyone wanting to talk? -Morwen.

Short answer: it doesn't fit. Not in itself, anyway.

From memory, though, Tolkien's catch-all explanation for this and other poems included in "Tales from the Perilous Ream", is that they're traditional songs which reflect actual happenings, if at all, only in the distorted way of folklore.

Following that concept, "Firiel" would be some unknown person's idea of how the "sailing into the West" business worked, rather than a true story. You know, just like the "Man in the Moon" poems aren't presented as a factual account of the life and times of Tilion.

Interesting, Nerwen! So do you, for example, have an idea of what could have "inspired" this particular poem, for instance?

Isn't there another side to it?

What lass upon reading that poem doesn't wish "Oh, if only that had been me!" I know I did. It is far more compelling than Shadow Bride, or Princess Mee, for instance; and in a way, it is as heartbreaking as "The Sea Bell."

The point is, that it doesn't fit; WE don't fit. We long for the shores of Aman and cannot get there. As mortals, our destiny is beyond the circles of the world. But we want what the elves have. And for a stunning moment, they offer it to her. We WANT her to say yes, to sail west, and see the white shores.

Instead, she braids her hair, and gets to her day's work. And doesn't our heart break-- not just for her, but for ourselves as well?

In response to another thread I was reading one of Tolkien's letters to Pauline Baynes where he says that these poems are "pictures seen in a tapestry of antiquity" . As has been pointed out they are not factual even in the way say that the song of Beren and Luthien that Aragorn sings in LOTR is .. the immortal elves can preserve their oral tradition in the way that mortals can not.

It has internal "evidence" that this poem has its origins (within the conceit of it being folklore of a created world) in Belfalas where the elves had the harbour Edhellond and where the princes claimed their heritage from an unprecedented union of elf and man (other than for high purpose). Such a place might be conducive to this kind of story. Firiel means mortal woman or she who died. The name was first given to Miriel where it makes sense. It's use in this poem suggests that it doesn't relate to a specific real person, rather a wish or as many fairytales are a warning or explanation of why you can't do what you might wish...

It is lovely but it is middle earth legend not history.

An 'editorial' footnote
 

According to an 'editorial' footnote by Tolkien, which I think people might find interesting:

The name was borne by a princess of Gondor, through whom Aragorn claimed descent from the Southern line. It was also the name of a daughter of Elanor, daughter of Sam, but her name, if connected with the rhyme, must be derived from it; it could not have arisen in Westmarch.

Earlier, Tolkien said that The Man in the Moon Came Down Too Soon and The Last Ship 'must be derived ultimately from Gondor', and that the poems were 'only re-handlings of Southern matter'. So while the stories are of Gondorian origin, we can't be sure what was in the mind of the original Gondorian composer, though I like the suggestion of Nerwen:

"Firiel" would be some unknown person's idea of how the "sailing into the West" business worked, rather than a true story.

so does anyone have a thought on whether the time of 3 AM and the phrase "looked out" as in "lookout" have any significance? Tolkien could have used "awoke" or 6 AM instead... ;)

Presumably, because dawn in that particular place and time of year came around 3:00 AM. Why should it be 6:00 AM?

If you'll forgive me for saying this, morwen, I think you're being a bit too literal in your interpretation of this poem.

Of course I forgive you! I just wondered, that's all.;) I have a... problem with literalism.

Nice thread!
 

I can't resist posting here; I'm totall in love with this poem. It's my favourite by far out of The Tales of T. B.

I think this might be a "myth in a mythology", or a made up story withing a made up story. It fits in ME just like ME fits in our world.

But aside from legendarium logistics, when I read the piece I think of dreams vs realism. Firiel comes to the river dressed as if for a holiday wishing to go with the Elves, and realises that she cannot, and comes back an ordinary person, rational and practical. She's like a person who discovers that their fate/destiny isn't what they would want it to be. Or a child who lost her childhood.

How much 're-handling'?
 

It is a lovely poem, Galadriel55. I've often wondered how much re-handling was done by the relevant hobbit (or hobbits) of the original Gondorian material, so was interested in what you said:

I think this might be a "myth in a mythology", or a made up story withing a made up story. It fits in ME just like ME fits in our world.

Perhaps the original Gondorian composer, inspired by the going over Sea of so many elves (and two hobbits) at the end of the Third Age, was speculating about how a Gondorian woman would react, given the same opportunity.:smokin:

Or maybe he was inspired by the fact that Elves have to go and Men in general have to stay... And with the Elves leaves the high and beautiful...

What is unusual...
 

First off, hi again everyone! Took a break for a while. Anyway, what <i> is unusual about this poem, from an in-universe perspective, is the fact that a woman represents humans- "Men"- as a whole. And I say that as a woman (because yay! I turned 18 on 2nd October!). From the Middle-earth perspective, maybe this poet decided to use a woman instead of a man, because it becomes more poignant when told from a woman's perspective, as a man would possibly want the same thing for different reasons? </i>

Oh, another thing
 

Is she (Firiel) really a woman technically, though? Somehow I had this idea that she was a young girl, maybe she would (best-case scenario) get married to a farmer/fisherman/blacksmith in a few years, aged about 15 at the time of the poem.

I've always thought that she was somewhere between 15 and 20 - like just before the age that they used to marry at. I guess it depends on what you consider to be a "young girl", but sure - young, unmarried... Though I can't say she's too young.

I don't believe it says anything that could give hints to her age, though I think I assumed her to be young because the story "feels" like she's growing up, letting go of her dreams and innocent ignorance, replacing toys and fancy dresses with work and practical clothing... It might be that when we first see her (when she "looked out") she is a girl, but when she came home and changed beautiful to practical she is a woman.


It's an interesting point that you made about the gender. Maybe Tolkien just wanted the character to be more gentle... so that does come down to poignant. And I think that "Earth's daughter" resonates better than "Earth's son".

And what is it with daughters? Earth's Daughter, River Daughter... The femininity gives a nice ring to it, as well as making the stories more elegant...


Don't kill me for the following few sentences, please...

In some native stories of creation the man appears in different ways, but he is always put there by the god(s)/spirits/etc. The man, then, finds the woman within nature (eg, in one story, she came to him from a cedar tree). Could the mythologies that have influenced Tolkien have similar ideas? The "Nature Daughter" thing is really interesting...


Edit: correction: she is called "Earth-maiden", so she's definitely in her youth.

Edit 2: I think that another reason for this poem to be so poignant (aside from the "growing up" thing) is the words "never more" in the last stanza. Just these two words by themselves are powerful enough, and with the context of the story - absolutely overwhelming.

And also
 

It seems like she spent the whole day outside too... few minutes to humans is 24 hours for Elves. The time compression makes it dreamlike.

They call her Earth Maiden; she calls herself Earth's Daughter. But elves are tied to Ea more than men are, so i find that strange. Men escape beyond the circles of the world; elves remain within.

Another picky detail, but I interpret the "Jewelled hem" of her gown differently. I think it's the morning dew. The water was the road to the enchantment; kingfisher, willows, river, elves.

And the reason she has no jewels on the way home, is that the water (and the enchantment) has dried and gone. When she approached the river, she was entering into the enchantment, and the dew became like jewels; but as she turned back to earth, braided her hair, and donned her smock of russet brown, she rejoined the earth.

Sad.

The Stolen Child
 

In complete contrast-- but notice how the water plays into this poem as well, and how the enchantments are described:

I always thought..
 

there was an implication in the poem that she died years later. Notice how she's not mentioned in the last stanza. I think the "earth's daughter" thing is a reference to origins. Humans originated on Earth; the Elves are from Valinor- no longer "part of Earth"- but separate from the visible world, and no human, hobbit, or non-Elf/Maia/Vala can go there without special permission. I read the original 1934 poem somewhere on theOneRing.net, which ends with her rejoining her family, parents, siblings, cousins etc, and its implied that she was only briefly tempted to leave.

Since she's mortal she dies eventually. I think that the last stanza refers to the whole mortal world rather than her as an individual. And the "time leap" is a much longer leap than a lifespan of a human. "Never" - eternity. Firiel might have passed on, and her children and grandchildren etc, but one thing that stays the same is that the Elves (and whatever they symbolise in your eyes) forsook our world forever.

Yeah, that fits... about the jewels on the dress and the water symbolising the enchantment.. does that mean that (whether literally or metaphorically) when Firiel stepped out near the water, her clothes were transformed into a jewelled dress?

I think Helen meant that there were no actual jewels at any point; there were dew drops. No transformations, just a metaphor-symbolism-thing-whatever.

I really like that interpretation. I wanted to rep that post, but apparently I have been picky lately.