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- - Dragon-Helm (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1898)

Orald

03-17-2001 12:02 AM

Dragon-Helm

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shadow of Malice
Posts: 694</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Does it strike anyone else as odd that the Helm of Hador was named the Dragon-Helm of Dor-Lòmin? For one, was the helm named such before the first dragons appeared. I don't think it was, but it still could have been. And another thing that seems odd is that it would carry the name of foes of Men and Elves.

I am expecting a logical answer from Mithadan since he has done this the past few times I have started a topic. However lindil seems to be answering many questions of late and it would be of no suprise for him to enlighten me <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

Elenanna

03-17-2001 12:59 AM

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Posts: 88</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Dragon-Helm

is ok if i answer? in UT it says that the dragon helm of dorlomin was made after the first battle they had with Glurung and had an image of a dragon carved on it or it was forged in the image of a dragons head in mockery of Glaurung. im not going into the exact details because id have to look it up but thats basically what it says

Visit me at <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/blorien16140>Lorien</a> friend of <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/bamongwareth>Amon Gwareth</a> and <a href=http://pub2.ezboard.com/brivendel>Rivendel</a> find my corpse at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi>The Barrowdowns</a> </p>

HerenIstarion

03-17-2001 01:53 AM

Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 930
Re: Dragon-Helm

Answer being given already, I'll add some detail, for truly...

Quote:

That helm was made of grey steel adorned with gold, and on it were graven runes of victory. A power was in it that guarded any who wore it from wound or death, for the sword that hewed it was broken, and the dart that smote it sprang aside. It was wrought by Telchar, the smith of Nogrod, whose works were renowned. It had a visor (after the manner of those that the Dwarves used in their forges for the shielding of their eyes), and the face of one that wore it struck fear into the hearts of all beholders, but was itself guarded from dart and fire. Upon its crest was set in defiance a gilded image of the head of Glaurung the dragon; for it had been made soon after he first issued from the gates Morgoth. Often Hador, and Galdor after him, had borne it in war; and the hearts of the host of Hithlum were uplifted when they saw it towering high amid the battle, and they cried: Of more worth is the Dragon of Dor-lómin than the gold-worm of Angband!

But in truth this helm had not been made for Men, but for Azaghâl Lord of Belegost, he who was slain by Glaurung in the Year of Lamentation. It was given by Azaghâl to Maedhros, as guerdon for the saving of his life and treasure, when Azaghâl was waylaid by Orcs upon the Dwarf-road in East Beleriand. Maedhros afterwards sent it as a gift to Fingon, with whom he often exchanged tokens of friendship, remembering how Fingon had driven Glaurung back to Angband. But in all Hithlum no head and shoulders were found stout enough to bear the dwarf-helm with ease, save those of Hador and his son Galdor. Fingon therefore gave it to Hador, when he received the lordship of Dor-lómin. By ill-fortune Galdor did not wear it when he defended Eithel Sirion, for the assault was sudden, and he ran barehead to the walls, and an orc-arrow pierced his eye. But Húrin did not wear the Dragon-helm with ease, and in any case he would not use it, for he said: "I would rather look on my foes with my true face." Nonetheless he accounted the helm among the greatest heirlooms of his house

Orald

03-17-2001 06:59 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shadow of Malice
Posts: 695</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Dragon-Helm

I did not expect it. But it makes sense. A dwarf helm and all. I knew it was made by Telchar, But I didn't know it was actually for a dwarf.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

lindil

03-21-2001 09:31 AM

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Posts: 502</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Turin

It is one of the many tragedies [and in theis case irony] that Turin did not make full use of the Helm when he confronted glaurung in Nargothrond, all would have been different had he kept the visor down!

Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns and working on his new discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

Elenanna

03-23-2001 11:40 PM

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Re: Turin

he did make full use of it, sort of, just Glaurung tricked him into lifting it up.

Visit me at <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/blorien16140>Lorien</a> friend of <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/bamongwareth>Amon Gwareth</a> and <a href=http://pub2.ezboard.com/brivendel>Rivendel</a> find my corpse at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi>The Barrowdowns</a> </p>

Glorfindel

03-25-2001 11:22 AM

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Re: Turin

How did Glaurung trick him into lifting it?
i mean i just read it in the silmarillion that he just came up to the dragon and looked him in the eye and was caught in the dragon's spell. But if you have another source then i will refute what i just said.

</p>

HerenIstarion

03-25-2001 10:13 PM

Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 935
Re: Turin

In UT, if I rememeber correctly, is said that at first Turin was afraid to look at Glaurung in the eye, but Glaurung taunted him, calling him coward (not so literary but in very close terms), so, angered Turin lifted the visor of his helm.

Another question how the helm got to Nargothrond at all, since it was obviously carried by orcs who’s captive Turin has been, but there’s no report of Beleg and Gwindor getting hold of it.

Elenanna

03-25-2001 10:32 PM

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Re: Turin

i thought turin was carrying it? how did the orcs capture turin? sorry i can't remember

Visit me at <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/blorien16140>Lorien</a> friend of <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/bamongwareth>Amon Gwareth</a> and <a href=http://pub2.ezboard.com/brivendel>Rivendel</a> find my corpse at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi>The Barrowdowns</a> </p>

HerenIstarion

03-26-2001 02:48 AM

Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 937
Re: Turin

Orcs obviously get hold of the helm when Turin was taken captive on Amon Rudh, yet there is no statement that Beleg and Gwindor have taken the helm back, when they released Turin

HerenIstarion

03-26-2001 02:59 AM

Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 938
Re: Dragon-Helm

Here is the whole passage of UT:

Quote:

It may be noted here that it was my father's intention to extend the history of the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin into the period of Túrin's sojourn in Nargothrond and even beyond; but this was never incorporated into the narratives. In the existing versions the Helm disappears with the end of Dor-Cúarthol, in the destruction of the outlaws' stronghold on Amon Rûdh; but in some way it was to reappear in Túrin's possession at Nargothrond. It could only have come there if it had been taken by the Orcs that carried Túrin off to Angband; but its recovery from them at the time of Túrin's rescue by Beleg and Gwindor would have required some development of the narrative at that point.
An isolated scrap of writing tells that in Nargothrond Túrin would not wear the Helm again "lest it reveal him", but that he wore it when he went to the Battle of Tumhalad

(cf The Silmarillion p.212, where he is said to have worn the Dwarf-mask that he found in the armouries of Nargothrond).

note continues:

For fear of that helm all foes avoided him, and thus it was that he came off unhurt from that deadly field. It was thus that he came back to Nargothrond wearing the Dragon-helm, and Glaurung, desiring to rid Túrin of its aid and protection (since he himself feared it), taunted him, saying that surely Túrin claimed to be his vassal and retainer, since he bore his master's likeness on the crest of his helm.
But Túrin answered: "Thou liest, and knowest it. For this image was made in scorn of thee; and while there one to bear it doubt shall ever assail thee, lest the bearer deal thee thy doom."
"Then it must await a master of another name," said Glaurung; "for Túrin son of Húrin I do not fear. Otherwise is it. For he has not the hardihood to look me in the face, openly."
And indeed so great was the terror of the Dragon that Túrin dared not look straight upon his eye, but had kept the visor of his helmet down, shielding his face, and in his parley had looked no higher than Glaurung's feet. But being thus taunted, in pride and rashness he thrust up the visor and looked Glaurung in the eye.

In another place there is a note that it was when Morwen heard in Doriath of the appearance of the Dragon-helm at the Battle of Tumhalad that she knew that the tale was true that the Mormegil was indeed Túrin her son.

Finally, there is a suggestion that Túrin was to wear the Helm when he slew Glaurung, and would taunt the Dragon at his death with his words at Nargothrond about "a master of another name"; but there is no indication of how the narrative was to be managed to bring this about.

Mithadan

03-26-2001 11:51 AM

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Re: Dragon-Helm

Sorry Durelen, Mithadan has been very busy of late (and actually absent for periods of time). Nice to know I've been missed. <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

lindil

03-26-2001 12:29 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 526</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Dragon-Helm

There he is. Just posting about you in the Silm forum. I put up a little DoV thread w/ your name on it.
<img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

lindil

</p>

Galin

01-31-2010 01:37 AM

The image of the Dragon on the helm appears to have been the head of the Dragon, though the description used in the new Children of Hurin more easily allows for Alan Lee's interpretation.

Anyway, I wonder what people imagine the visor itself to look like (I can't remember any artistic renderings of it myself).

In the Grey Annals (§232): 'Now the Naugrim withstood fire more hardily than either Elves of Men, and it was the custom of the Enfeng to wear great masks (struck out: or vizors) in battle hideous to look upon, which stood them in great stead against the drakes.' Compare to the description from Unfinished Tales: 'It had a visor (after the manner of those that the Dwarves used in their forges for the shielding of their eyes), and the face of one that wore it struck fear into the hearts of all beholders,...'

In commentary to the Grey Annals (§280) we find that Túrin 'thrust up the visor and looked Glaurung in the eye' (in both the published Silmarillion and The Children of Húrin Turin does not have the Helm at this point).

Anyway, any ideas? I thought maybe (and perhaps like one of the battle-masks) a distorted image of an angry dwarf-face? for one possibility.

Pitchwife

01-31-2010 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galin

Anyway, any ideas? I thought maybe (and perhaps like one of the battle-masks) a distorted image of an angry dwarf-face? for one possibility.

That's more or less what I'd imagine, too. There's a nice picture of a dwarven battle-mask here, although the expression could be a little more ferocious.

Elemmakil

04-13-2010 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galin (Post 622607)

My suspicion is that the description Tolkien wrote in UT was probably influenced by this real life Anglo Saxon/Swedish helm from the early 7th century:

http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore...burial_at.aspx

Can't prove it, but the original reconstruction was published by Herbert Maryon in 1946, and I find it hard to believe that it would not have struck Tolkien's fancy, as enamored of that culture and time period as he was.

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