Beginning and End
 

Anyone else noticed how much the beginning and end of Arda are so much like the Creation and the Apocalypse? Now I know that everyone is going to say that "Tolkien hated allegory" and all that crap, but the account of the Ainulindale and the second Prophecy of Mandos also sound like all the accounts of the beginning and end in all the monotheistic religions.

For those who haven't read 'The Lost Road' (I'm assuming that everyone who will respond has read the Ainulindale), here it is:

Now I'm ready for everyone to disagree with me, but, hey, that's what the Downs are for, huh? I've said my piece.

Eruhen, I did notice that myself. Thouhg I have not read 'The Lost Road' until now, I have heard many people here speak of it. I agree that the creation of Arda does have some similatiries to the Biblical Creation story. Even the end of Arda does, New Heaven, New Earth.

The story of Morgoth/Melkor being chained in Mandos then being loosed sounds a little like Rev. chapter 20 to me.

[ March 06, 2002: Message edited by: Joy ]

I agree and know that Tolkien hated allegory, but I have noticed that most writers write based on their personal ethos. So it does not suprise me that The Lost Road and the biblical Creation/Apocalypse stories have many similarites. Personally, I think it is beautiful. But then again, I am a Tolkienista! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Well, for a man who hated allegories, he sure wrote a lot of good ones. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I noticed it too.

No! Tolkien did not write allegories! [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] I'm sure you all are aware of the distinction between allegory and application Tolkien himself made. Tolkien wrote an exquisite (to my mind) poem about this. I quote it below, as if has a bearing on this discussion:

Herein lies Tolkien's creative foundation. Theistic, thoroughly human, he recognizes the image of God in humanity as each person'a creativity. And that creativity sub-creates from the Creator, can only create what has been imagined by the Creator already.

The text quoted by Eruhen is truly sublime, and it bears echoes of the Revelation of St. John. It also bears resemblances, to my mind, to Ragnarok; no surprise there. I ask you, how could it NOT resemble the apocalypses? It is apocalyptic itself. What you call allegory is NOT allegory, but sub-cration within the genre of apocalypse. What I find truly beautiful about Tolkien's is that his apocalypse bears the stamp of Middle Earth through and through. Alright. I've yacked enough.

[ March 06, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

True, but read about Ragarnok, the Norse Creation/Apocalypse story. See if you can pick out the similarities. (There is even a familiar name in there. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] )

Of course, all Stories of man are One Story.

Cool, I actually see several names that are silmilar.

Bifrost - Bifur
Vali = Valinor
Gimle = Gimli, actually means Heaven or paridise
Sounds like Feanor and the Kin-Slaying.
Sounds like what Melkor and Ungilant did to the two Tress on Yavanna

Didn't see it mentioned before but of course there always the Norse "Midgard" - Middle-earth. And almost all of the dwarf-names from "The Hobbit" turn up in various Norse Eddas (even Bombur, which I hadn't expected).

And as for allegory...maybe Tolkien just hated the idea of deliberately writing an allegory, the same way a lot of writers to avoid consciously using symbolism ("OK, the color red will represent danger when it appears"). On the other hand, sometimes symbolism will develop in a story naturally to point where you read your own work over and notice it and wonder where it came from, and that can work well. I think that Tolkien's stories are fantastic allegories, just naturally produced ones that grew into allegories on their own without any conscious effort on his part.

I just realized a flaw in my reasoning. The account of the Last Battle doesn't take into account any judgement of anyone, except for Morgoth, which is a staple of all end-times stories. Personally, I wonder when and if the races are judged for what they did in ME. I imagine that Eru would do that, but the prophecy in 'The Lost Road' says nothing about Him at all!

Just wondering.

Sigh. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] You are welcome to your opinions, of course, Kalimac, but by asserting that what Tolkien did was "without any conscious effort on his own part", you defeat your assertion because allegories are "the expression by means of symbolic fictional figures and actions truths or generalizations about human existence".

As Tolkien explained over and over again, he did not write that kind of fictional story. Rather, there are many APPLICATIONS of meaning to be found in LOTR.

And yes, it's true that readers can FIND all the allegories that they wish in a work, whether they should or not. Allegory is indeed the cheapest form of creative writing, and frankly it's no compliment to the author to read any number of different allegories into his/her story. Usually all one does is cloud the issue or lose the beauty originally intended.

Littleman, I agree with you, the 'allegory' tag is often and infuriatingly mis-applied to Tokien (and other writers). Finding a structural or even symbolic similiarity is a million miles from proving allegorical intent. And your excellent summation of the "theistic humanism" in Tolkien's work actually does much more justice to his creativity and original voice. I have tried - believe me I have tried - to argue repeatedly that to imply LotR or other works are some kind of 'new age' re-working of the Bible, or that Tolkien was coding explicitly evangelical messages through his mythos, is an insult to his work. Proponents of this argument (ie. Gandalf is Jesus etc.) are by inference turning JRRT into little more than a subtle plagiarist or 'spin doctor'.

Traditional Christian sensibilities, and specifically the primacy of honour, loyalty, self-sacrifice and platonic love as the highest of virtues are self-evident in all Tolkien's works. This inherently chivalric morality is entirely consistent with his own contextual writing and expressed intent. I can't see how overlaying this with an evangelical propagandist agenda makes his works more meaningful or enjoyable - in fact it achieves the opposite. I can't help worrying about appropriation and an attempt at 'ownership' when I see this.

If you review the major world mythos, from the Ramayana to the Mabinogion, from the Neibelung to the Tuathe de Danaan, from Quetzacoatl to the Iliad and Odyssey, you can and will find symbolic and moral similarities, coincidences, narrative methodologies, and an attempt at both lyricism and depth - and it is Tolkien's achievement that, working alone in a cynical and world-weary era, he painstakingly re-captured and re-invigorated readers with some of this essence in his works.

As literature, the traditional English translation of the Bible - particularly the Gospels - is a work of profound conviction and complexity ; it is challenging, revelatory, joyful, transcendent and volcanic in its intensity. No allegory, however disguised with eclectic archetypes from world myths, could do it justice, and such an act is not necessary. The LotR and other works were an act of creativity and attentiveness by Tolkien, suffused with his cultural and spiritual sensibilities, and with conscious and unconscious references to the pantheon of heroic and magical storytelling he loved so much. Let it speak and stand for itself. And let the Bible stand and speak for itself too.

Peace

[ March 07, 2002: Message edited by: Kalessin ]

Yes. Well said, Kalessin! This is part of Tolkien's objection to C.S. Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia, in which there is a rather clear allegory - which has served to polarize Lewis into an Evangelical-Christian-Poster-Author.

Ragnarök

Wow! That's pretty scary - Farmer Giles' dog Garm is actually the Hound of Hell?!

The most interesting comparison between Tolkien's Last Battle and Ragnarök (apart from the Gimli thing) is that Ragnarök is an ending and a beginning. Tolkien's world doesn't have this cyclic ending, does it? What happens after the Last Battle (whatever it's called)?