The Greatest powers on Middle Earth (3rd age)... Listed in order
 

I think it would be this way:

1. Sauron (with his ring)
2. Gandalf-Galadriel-Sauron (without his ring)
3. Saruman
4. Elrond
5. Witch King of the Nazgul
6. Shelob
7. Fangorn (Treebeard)
8. Celeborn-Glorfindel
9. Arwen
9. The other 8 Nazgul
10.Aragorn

Do you agree?

This topic asks for opinions, not for book discussion, and has been moved to the Novices and Newcomers forum. Please continue there.

im not disagreeing with your list, i think its very good. but could you just please explain why arwen is more powerful than aragorn? also, why are celeborn and glorfindel so powerful? and fangorn???

01. Sauron
02. Gandalf
03. Galadriel
04. Saruman
05. Elrond
06. Glorfindel
07. Witch King of the Nazgul
08. Shelob
09. Fangorn (Treebeard)
10. Celeborn

Well theres my top ten (perhaps legolas should be in there....yeah right! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] )

When you were asking this question did you mean the most powerful people/beings in Middle Earth? Im a bit confused lol.

This is a tough list because some of the powers/people changed dramaticly during the story. When Saruman was "The White", and Gandalf "The Grey", Saruman was the more powerfull. After Gandalf broke Saruman's staff, Saruman became far less powerfull. Aragorn grew in power as well. The lists are very subjective, but here goes -

1- Sauron
2- Tom Bombadil
3- Galadriel
4- The Whitch King (the profecy makes him more powerfull than any of the males)
5- Cirdan (He was one of the leaders of the Teleri on The Great March. Man that's old!)
6- Elrond
7- Gandalf (The White)
8- Balrog
9- Saruman (The White)
10- Aragorn

I am interested to know why so many people are puttin Galadriel so high, often above the Istari. Although she was strong for an elf, she was no match for a Maia.
Also at what point in the third age are people refering to, Sauraman was very powerful at the beginning of the age, much more powerful than Gandalf, it was only after he tried to dominate others that his power dwindled.
I also think that Aragorn should not be on the list if it is only the top ten. Although powerful for a man at his time in the first age, there were many men more powerful than he at other times in the third age, such as Isildur and other kings of Arnor and Gondor, and most elves would also be more powerful than Aragorn so he should be nowhere near the top ten.
Here is my thoughts for a list:
1.Sauron
2.Gandalf the White
3.Sauraman (at beginning of appearance)
4.Balrog
5.Galadriel
6.Gil Galad
7.Elrond
8.Glorfindel
9.Which King
10.Celeborn

I think you are right putting Gil Galad on the list instead of Aragorn. But I think Aragorn grows more powerful than Isildur, because Isildur was corrupted by the ring. Maybe Aragorn had more luck in that case because Frodo was the one to bear the ring. But it takes Aragorn very much to fulfill his fate and become king.

I would have to place all of the Maiar first on the list because, well, they were Maiar. In my view, they are therefore more powerful than Elves, even very powerful Elves such as Galadriel, Elrond and Glorfindel.

Sauron tops the list in my book, whether with or without the One Ring. Even without the Ring, he was the greatest threat to ME throughout the Third Age: he had massive armies at his disposal (not to mention assorted nasties like the Nazgul) and the major powers of "good" had a pretty tough time defeating him.

In my opinion, Gandalf and Saruman would have been a match for Sauron in their Maia form, but not in the human form which they took on in ME. While I am tempted to place Saruman above Gandalf, by reason of the forces that he evantually had at his disposal, I believe that Gandalf edges it by reason of his greater wisdom and humility (enabling him to avoid the corruption that spelt Saruman's doom) and also because he was able to mobilise the free people of ME to his cause. Whether Grey or White, therefore, I would put Gandalf before Saruman.

Than comes the Balrog, another Maia. Although Gandalf was able to defeat him, he died doing so, and I believe that he would have been a match for any Elf. Yes, Glorfindel had defeated a Balrog, and quite possibly the likes of Galadriel and Elrond could have done so, but I believe that the Balrog was intrinsically more powerful than them.

Then come the greatest of the Elves: Galadriel, Elrond, Glorfindel, Cirdan, Celeborn and Gil-Galad, in that order. Oh, and the Witch King would have to go after Galadriel, for the very good reason pointed out by Chancellen: no male could defeat him.

And I have to include Smaug. As one of the last surviving representatives of Ancalagon's horde, he was surely one of the most powerful beings of ME in the Third Age.

After that it becomes difficult. We have the likes of Thranduil, Dain II, Aragorn, Isildur, Elendil etc, not to mention the remaining Nazgul. It becomes very difficult to choose between them, so I won't. So, here's my list:

1. Sauron
2. Gandalf
3. Saruman
4. The Balrog
5. Galadriel
6. The Witch King
7. Elrond
8. Glorfindel
9. Cirdan
10. Celeborn
11. Gil-Galad
12. Smaug

Shelob doesn't make my list since, although fearsome, I could not put her above any of the 12 listed above. Aragorn would probably have been a pretty good match for her in a straight fight.

Also, I haven't included Tom Bombadil, since he cannot really be compared with the others, being the enigma that he is. Perhaps he should come first, being unaffected by the Ring, or perhaps he should not feature at all, being unconcerned in such matters.

There are others who might be included, but we don't know enough about them. The other Istari, for example, although I tend to agree with the comment on another thread that Radagast was a bit of a "rubbish wizard". :D The two blue wizards? Any other Balrogs or dragons who escaped the War of Wrath? We just don't know enough about them.

I have a question.

If the With King of Angmar was not slayable by a male, then THAT would include Gandalf and Saruman in their human forms. So, an elven female would be more powerful than them. Dont you think?

So, I would rearrange your list as this:

1. Sauron
2. Galadriel
3. Gandalf
4. Saruman

It doesn't say that no male could defeat him, but that none would. I think the quote is "His doom lies far off, and not by the hand of man shall he fall."
This doesn't mean he couldn't be killed by a man but that he wouldn't, he was killed by Merry, a hobbit not a man.
Also if you take more power as the ability to defeat someone in battle, then Merry would have to be higher than the Witch king and Gil Galad would have to be higher than Sauron.
This is not the case so you can't put Galadriel higher for that reason.

[ March 10, 2003: Message edited by: Voralphion ]

Hmm, good point. Perhaps the Witch King should go lower down the list ... Below Elrond? Or further? I'm not really sure. So, I'll leave him where he is for now. :rolleyes:

I think the Witchking should stay where he is right now on your list. He is a powerful but his fate was to be defeated by Eowyn and Merry; so his power was limited.

I also think you are right putting Gandalf above Saruman. Saruman might have been more powerful than Gandalf (the Grey) but he failed in his quest. And Gandalf had the eagels on his side to save him from Saruman and he was the one tomove things and to unite men, elves and hobbits to fight against Sauron.

Here's mine. Feel free to criticize me (but nicely).

1. Sauron
2. Gandalf
3. Saruman
4. Balrog
5. Smaug
6. Elrond
7. Glorfindel
8. Treebeard
9. Galadriel
10.Celeborn

Well now, I don't know what to think.

Saucepan, I think your pretty close to it, but I'd have Glorfindel above the witch king because ALL nine of the Wraiths were darned scard of him. (If I were on his bad side I would be too.)

I´d say Galadriel is more powerfull then Elrond, and Smaug shouldn´t be in there at all. My list is:

1. Sauron
2. Gandalf
3. Saruman
4. Galadriel
5. Elrond
6. Balrog
7. Nazgul
8. Hobbits (as a unit)
9. Treebeard
10.Aragorn
11.Tom Bombadil
12. Cirdan
13. Arwen

Explanations:
Galadriel is more powerfull than Elrond, because she controls more land, has a greater impact on people , is older AND ever considered taking the ring. This means she seriously wants power, wants to rule. Elrond never showed this intrest in power. He´s wise, but he´s also rather passive.

Smaug isn´t in there, because for one thing he´s dead, for the other his presence never threatend the whole of ME. The dwarves and Dalemen were the only ones scared of him.

Hobbits:
This will need some explanation. All hobbits are powerfull, but only if they act together. Frodo cold only destroy the ring because Sam helped him, and Merry could only destroy the WhitchKing, because he followed Frodo out of the Shire in the first place. Besides, their home, the Shire, is one of the places where there is still power. Gandalf says so in FotR: Hobbits are a definite power in ME. A hobbit destoyed the ring. A hobbit slew the Witchking. They have power.

Arwen:
Arwen is on there because her love is one of the things that makes Aragorn go on, that protects him. Elrond says they can only marry if Aragorn is king. That probabyly was one of Aragorn´s chief motivatoins. Also, Galadriel (Aragorn´s Grandmother-in-law) gave him the Elessar, that would later be his symbol as a king. Arwen made the banner of Elendil for him, and Arwen protected him. She isn´t physically powerfull, but her love and presence make Aragorn even more powerfull.

Seems a pretty good list to me Manardariel, but I would question one or two points:

I understood the question to relate to the whole of the 3rd Age, so Smaug would figure in that. Also, he might only have been a problem for the Dwarves of Erebor and the Men of Dale as matters turned out, but had he survived, he might well have become part of the threat to the whole of ME. My understanding is that Sauron planned on trying to persuade Smaug to join his forces and that this is why Gandalf "arranged" the adventure told in The Hobbit.

If we start talking in terms of more than one individual, then many more possibilities open up. The armies of Gondor, the Riders of Rohan, the Orcs, the Easterlings etc etc. The list could become very long indeed! ;)

I do think that yours is a very good list of the principal powers involved in the War of the Ring, although shouldn't Shelob figure in that one? Also, possibly, Faramir?

Smaug is dead. Yes, that's true, but the Balrog, Saruman, and the Nazgul are dead too. It doesn't matter. This is a 3rd age list, and anybody alive at any time during the third age is eligible.

And also, it doesn't matter that Smaug didn't threaten all of ME. The Balrog didn't either, he just hung out in Moria. I don't think you can say he wasn't powerful just because he stayed home.

And on the same note, controlling more land doesn't make one more powerful. Why would Elrond need to control more land? All of his people live in Rivendell, so he has no incentive to control anything outside of the valley. But remember, he does control the river, and controlling a river is not a small thing.

And maybe Elrond didn't show as much interest in the ring because he wasn't as power hungry, or perhaps his will was stronger and character more noble, and so he was not so easily tempted.

Galadriel is not power-hungry, nor is she character weak. She is tempted by the ring, yes, but what shows how great and strong her character is, is that she doesn´t take it! Frodo offers it to her. He says, "You can have it! Im giving it to you!" And she doesn´t take it!! That is the depth of Galadriels charater. In the book she say she HAS greatly desired it. She´s beyond that point now, she knows she will be terrible without it. She doesn´t take it. That´s why Galadriel is more powerfull than Elrond, because someone considers giving her the ring, and she refuses to take it.

I dont understand why would you place Saruman above Galadriel. Even though Saruman was a maia, his power was greatly diminished after he was corrupted by his desire of the One Ring (and the control over him that Sauron had). Saruman had his will taken captive when he dared to look in the palantir to spy Sauron. Galadriel does the same thing, without the palantir, and not only does her will overcomes Sauron's struggle for control, but also she has the power to see what the Dark Lord thinks!

And even though I still think that Galadriel and Gandalf are in the same place in terms of power (even though, again, hes a maia, but remember that his power was limited by the Valar because they were forbidden to match Sauron's power with power), I think my list would be like this:

1. Sauron
2. Gandalf/Galadriel/Bombadil
3. The Balrog/Saruman
4. Elrond/Cirdan/Celeborn/Radagast
5. Glorfindel
6. Smaug
7. Treebeard
8. Witch King of Angmar/Arwen
9. Aragorn
10.The other 8 Nazgul/Shelob

I don't know if any of y'all have read unfinished tales, but it seems that Tolkien put Gandalf over Sauremon in hte first place and Sauremon knew it, and so he copied him and hated him, this is evidenced in the book, if u want to read more, read Istari in unfinished tales.

If its anyone who was alive and active in the third age, this would be my list:
1. Sauron - No explanation Necessary
2. Gandalf the White His Skill and Mind Bested Sauron
3. Gil Gilad - Fought Sauron Face to Face
4. Saruman The White - Pretty effective at putting together a force to make war and imprisioned The grey pilgrim.
5. Gandalf the Grey - Dispatched the Balrog, set the wheels in motion
6. Balrog - Powerful leftover from a another age
7. Galadriel - The Thingol of the Third age. Keep Lorien a safe have and a ringbearer.
8. Radagast - He's still an Istari
9. Elrond - Well rounded Elf
10. Aragorn - In the line of Numenor, long life, great in battle.
Honorable Mention:
Treebeard, Beorn, Glorinfidel, The nine wraiths, Witch king
Note: If you think Gandalf should only be mentioned once The Witch King would move up, but since his power was so tied to sauron I didn't feel he belonged in the top ten, Also Shelob Is just a beast, a well prepared troop of soldiers with the right equipment could eliminate her.

Sauron: Obviously
Gandalf the White: Sort of goes without saying, but close with 3rd and 4th place.
Galadriel: Elf Witch, yeah, she's powerful
Saruman: Until his defeat
Balrog: He's Maiar, he has to get in the top 5.
Witch-King: Mmm-hmm, prophecy helps him out a lot.

That's 1st-6th Place at least.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 9:54 AM February 07, 2004: Message edited by: Kransha ]

Why have so many people chosen Gil-Galad? He died in the last year of the Second Age, and is out of this. Just wanted to point this out.
My list:
1. Sauron
2. Gandalf
3. Saruman
4. Balrog
5. Galadriel
6. Elrond/Smaug/Watcher of the Water
7. Cirdan/Witch-King/Tom Bombadil/Fangorn
8. Celeborn/Glorfindel
9. Shelob/Gwaihir
10. Other Nazgûl/Aragorn

Something like that.

EDIT: My brother pointed out that nobody had the Watcher of the Water on their lists. I had totally forgotten about him/it!
EDIT AGAIN: Added Fangorn

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 4:50 AM February 08, 2004: Message edited by: NightKnight ]

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 5:06 AM February 08, 2004: Message edited by: NightKnight ]

#1. Sauron*
#2. Gandalf the White*
#3. Saruman
#4. Balrog
#5. Galadriel
#6. Elrond/Glorfindel
#7. Cirdan/Celeborn
#8. Fangorn/Shelob**/Smaug**
#9. Witch King of Angmar***
#10. Aragorn/other Nazgûl

* I found picking number one the hardest because I think Gandalf the white using his full powers would be more powerful than Sauron without his ring (he never had it in the third age). Because Gandalf was forbidden to use his powers I have put Sauron above him.
** I placed Shelob and Smaug together because of their similarities, even though they may not be equal when it comes to power, it's kind of hard to gauge. They are both evil creatures not necessarily in league with Sauron. They are also both descendants of very powerful evil creatures (Ungoliant and Ancalagon the Black). I am curious to know why if people even include Shelob they put her so far down on the list. That quote makes it clear that she belongs above any men.

***I am with Voralphion on the Witch King, He wasn't necesarily more powerful than any of the males, he just wasn't going to be killed by one.

Also, I agree with The Saucepan Man when it comes to Tom Bombadil. I have left him of the list because even if he should go in the Number One slot, he doesn't really affect ME in any way.

1. Tom Bombadil
2. Sauron/Gandalf the White
3.Gandalf the Grey
4.Saruman
5.Galadriel
6.Radagast/Elrond/Glorfindel/Balrog
7. Thranduil
8. Smaug/Shelob
9.The Witch-King
10. Any normal Elf

1. Sauron
2. Galadriel/Elrond
3. Gandalf the White
4. Saruman the White
5. Cirdan
6. The Witch King
7. Tom Bombadil
8. Glorfindel and the other High Elves
9. Celeborn/the Balrog
10. Aragorn

Please give reasons for your choices - plain lists are rather boring reading for others! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

1 Sauron- most agree on this
2 Gandalf- same thing
3&4 Saruman and Balrog- I'm considering Saruman before his downfall
5 Elrond- great healer, ultimate lore master, excellent forsight, very wise, controls a river, has Angelic ancestry
6 Galadriel- learned much over her long years, very experienced, resolute and mentally strong

Then I start having trouble. Here's some candidates for the next slots-

Radagast- He was probably somewhat hindered from using his full power like Gandalf, but how powerful was he really? Saruman sure didn't think very highly of him.
Glorfindel- He was a mighty elf-lord among those that rode forth from Rivendell because, as I recall the book saying, he had the power to ride openly against the nine.
Witch King- We saw and heard enough of him in the books to know he was a force to be reckoned with.
Celeborn- He was the ruler of a great realm and was said to be a great giver of gifts and also wise.
Cirdan- He was a very ancient and wise elf with great forsight, though we don't see him doing much (like Celeborn and Radagast).
Fangorn- He was very strong and knew a lot but who knows how he'd measure up against the others?
Shelob- She was a very nasty creature, then again a hobbit took care of her.
Smaug- He's probably my pick for number 7. If it weren't for that little weak spot in his armor who knows?

I'm sure I'm leaving some worthy beings off, but I don't have the time to list everyone.

I won't make a list,I will just comment every great force.

Sauron-he is Maia,and he was trained by Morgoth,so he is definetly the strongest
Gandalf-he is said to be wisest of all Maia (in Silmarillion),so he is definetly mightier than Saruman,and in his Maia form,definetly a great threat to Sauron
Saruman-before he became Sauron's puppet,he was wise and he is Maia,so he is definetly powerful
The Witchking-this is questioning-yes he was ment to not be killed by the hand of men,but he could be hurt,plus man could also mean human (as in Silmarilion)
Elrond,Galadriel,Glorfindel,Cirdan-they are all great and wise elves,and they were in world for many years,so they definetly have much power

Other I won't comment,because I think those before me gave grat opinions.