We are all nerds now
 

Fun article on the Guardian this morning, felt like sharing.

I particularly liked the part about plastic lightsabres.

--Rimbaud

Thanks, Rimbaud! So now we are all entitled not only to 15 minutes of fame, but also to 15% nerdism?! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

I found one sentence very interesting; it expresses what we certainly experience here on the Downs:

I find it sad that a book that can do that is considered so unusual.

Incredible. I'm a nerd several times over. It seems that these days you cannot be passionate about something without being classified as a Geek, Nerd, Brainiac, or just plain Wierd.

I know what Linux is, I play an instrument, and I grew up watching Indiana Jones and Star Wars, so I'm a Geek. I watch Star Trek and Jeopardy, and I know what the Divine Ratio is, so I'm a Nerd. I enjoy literature and I remember odd trivia, so I'm a Braniac. And of course I draw too much, listen to heavy metal and hardcore music, wear my jeans until they fall apart, and would rather eat paste than supervise 4th graders (not that I did that recently [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )... that gets me a Wierd in the eyes of the Cool people. Sadly the Cool people are the same ones who all listen to the same music, think knowledge is a waste of time and have relationships that last a week.

It saddens me that you can't love something without being considered an obsessive outcast.

Fea

But none of us are nerds by definition:

I know for as fact that none of us here are boring, unpopular, stupid or feeble. Therefore we are not nerds.

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Very true LePetitChoux!

The people who wrote this article may call us 'nerds', but the dictionary saves the day again!

~Fëa

Why thank you, Le Petit Choux and Arwen... I'm very glad not to be considered a nerd. Of course, by these standards, not many people are actually 'nerds'.

People enjoy nosing into my life, so I must not be boring, I'm friends with a rather large amount of people, I'm certainly not stupid (although sometimes I lack common sense), and you can see just how feeble I am when I'm the last one standing after a rough game of Floor Hockey against the guys. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Cheers,
Fea

The Grauniad strikes again, with another article about nothing. I'm amazed at the lack of spelling mistakes: they must have employed some actual proof-readers recently. Perhaps next they'll start employing journalists; or is that too much to hope for?

(EDIT)
I can see the basic premise here: that interests and ideas that were once considered the preserve of the unwashed, the dysfunctional and the socially inept have recently made their way into the main stream. This is, of course, absolute rubbish: the term 'geek' was invented by morons to describe people who had interests outside the often bizarre norms of the classroom. As such it has always encompassed a massive swathe of the population: doctors, lawyers, scientists, authors, engineers and architects; film directors, artists, composers and even fashion designers. The geeks have inherited the earth because they were and are the people who make it run properly and try to give it meaning. Of course the article's writer finds a lot of himself in the geek: he is one. He writes for a living and wears glasses. There are a lot of other definitions too, but those are at least two of them. If you like real ale, take an interest in languages, study academic subjects in your spare time, write poetry or like word games you're a geek as well. In fact, one might simply take it as a catch-all term for anyone who lives any sort of inner life at all.

It might be more valuable to consider how adopting playground slang into adult language leads to the rise of derogatory terms so vague and nebulous that they could refer to anyone. Or we could simply say that the eighties were the decade of the sharp, the greedy and the predatorial; but the beginning of the third millenium is witnessing the rise of the modelmakers, the internet communities, the roleplayers, the amateur scientists and the fantasy and science fiction fans. We were always greater in numbers, but now we've become fashionable as well. Could this decade mark the dawn of the era of geek chic?

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 8:45 AM December 13, 2003: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ]

I take it that the Guardian is known for it's useless articles?

I'm slightly confused though... What exactly is this article about? If it's about Nerdity in the 21st Century, then why did they only post the opening day of Return of the King? I can think of some "nerdy" movies coming out soon besides that... Or if it was about Lord of the Rings and the opening of RotK, then they certainly went off on a tangent. If I was grading that article, I'd give it a C... While it was slightly entertaining, I had difficulty figuring out what the @#%$ it was talking about!

Fea

So now I am a "middle youther"? Cool. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I might have missed something... is there a new name for Nerdy 16-year old Girl?

Fea

I think it's a little late for that. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Geek chic is in full swing.

I think the writer found something interesting, but didn't quite delve deep enough into the culture. "Geek" is certainly not a word with any negative conotation at this point, most true geeks celebrate their Geekhood at this day in age. I don't quite agree with Squatter's definition of Geek, as it was put. Geek is a much more specialized term than you're making it. Geek-hood is earned. They are in no way greater in numbers, and while are occasionally movers and shakers (how could they not be? There's no such thing as an un-intelligent geek), there are many who still belong to that "I live in my parent's basement" genre.

Simply because the objects of a geek's obsession has become mainstream doesn't mean that those who in turn enjoy those objects of fanaticism are indeed geeks. I even take a bit of offense to that.

Always remember that Fan is short for Fanatic, and unless you're a true fanatic, you're not a true fan. Geeks have always been fanatics.

I don't think that the author quite understands how much of a culture it is. Simply browsing through a comic shop or seeing a cult movie half a dozen times does not make you a geek. Having a "bit of geek" doesn't mean you are a geek.

But it does make a good point. Don't call us nerds. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 12:47 PM December 13, 2003: Message edited by: Beren87 ]

I like this definition, Squatter! I've never disavowed being both a nerd AND a geek! But, the sad thing of it is that, although, I've come to terms with this lifelong affliction and now believe it to be a strength, there are millions who have appropriated and modified it, so that it seems to mean something else now. Honestly, how many of the New Geeks have been tormented like us older ones (or have I been out of school too long?) It can be through torment and reflection that this inner life springs forth and becomes a primary force. So, in a way, the definition of "socially maladjusted" fits, and in another, it doesn't. It becomes an adjustment in itself--better than becoming an axe murderer! The only problem with that definition is that "socially" is changing. They just won't admit that the mainstream is fickle and the nerds and geeks are eternal! Hooray for the outcasts! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Anyway, I thought the definition for a "geek" was a circus performer who bit the heads off chickens! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Cheers,
Lyta

P.S. Thanks for allowing a geeknerd to rant a bit! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

P.P.S. Ah, it is the age of sharp re-definitions, is it? I think perhaps these terms have become emotionalized and relativized (is that a word?) lately! I think it depends on what realm you move in. Geek and nerd can be internal or "in the eye of the beholder." Hard to pin down, just like any good topic of conversation! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 12:55 PM December 13, 2003: Message edited by: Lyta_Underhill ]

There they go again, giving libraries a bad name. Why I oughta.... [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

The thing that amuses me, is that all this keeps coming back to unwashed, pimply bodies and glasses. The only people who can escape the interests of nerdism, would by default be devoid of any imagination, intelligence or real social skills (I mean, you'd have to have a small vocabulary and little brainpower, so how could you be sociable?). So how come the terminally stupid are the ones who supposedly manage to be clean and attractive and "cool"? And the people who actually have personalities and interests are considered the ugly, boring, smelly ones?

It just goes to show how illogical it is to let high school cliquishness perpetuate into adult life and the world at large. The article rather contradicted itself, by not admitting that the term "nerd" has always been a stupid term stupid people use to label others. I found this interesting:

If that's the case, why does LotR always do so well at the MTV Awards?

I'm a nerd according to this, but you have to realize that people at school have figured out already not to get me started on LOTR, Aname, and certain games. But I guess this article could be called usless caue we already knew that didn't we.

Seems to me, the defacto definition is provided by those who are not nerds, and is therefore quite simple: A nerd is someone who is not cool.

I think it's like social mobility. Anybody can recreate themselves if they learn how. I used to be uncool. Now I'm only uncool at home. I put on the cool persona at work. It's easier to get through the day that way. Heh. Sometimes the persona slips "when the wax gets hot". How much is a body willing to compromise to maintain cool?

And what was once uncool can become cool. It's all in the minds of the "in" crowd, who then foists it on the "out" crowd; unless someone or group can stage a revolution of sorts.

Of course, they could mean that nerds are so rarified and think beyond the realm of mere humanity that they are unable to bring themselves down to play the petty games of "sociability!" [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] (I know they didn't mean this, but, then again, how better to pigeonhole something so that the great masses of mainstream types can understand and yet not feel threatened?)

Well said, Diamond! I hold only loosely to any one's definition of "types", knowing it can be easily gotten around in specific cases. The micro is often lost in the macro. A single drop can be more interesting than the whole lake if it is delved into with good intentions. The concern for individual detail and the depth of an idea and being seem to me to be more rewarding than the bland overview of the "fashionable." When the fad for sci-fi and fantasy in the mainstream is over, the "geeks" and "nerds" will go on, and the regular folks will wipe their eyes and wonder where Wonderland went and wake up to the dreary everyday once more, never realizing they missed the real meaning of it all...

Cheers!
Lyta

Oh, Squatter! Too funny!

Yes, so it would seem. Although I for one have never really minded any of the terms used for such people (or shall I say us?) By Feanor's definition I am somewhat of a geek, nerd, braniac and weirdo all wrapped into one. Which suits me just fine. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Three cheers for outcasts!

I've often thought about that. The older generation of geeks, nerds, whatever, often speak of the torment they received at school, which I have received at various times in my life, but not for the same reasons that they did. In fact, I've hardly ever been wholly disliked, but I've never quite "fit in" anywhere. I guess I'm a bit like Frodo in that regard. But once again, my problems were caused by completely different issues than interests. I am a child of missionaries, and lived in the Czech Republic for five years (I'm actually half-Czech). That doesn't entirely encourage social relationships in America. And now that I homeschool, I must say that the Downs is one of my primary (and certainly most enjoyable) forms of socialization. But even in a normal public junior high or high school, it seems that geek chic is definately in. What used to be outcasts are now accepted, if not wholly understood, individuals. A so-called geek cannot usually become popular within the school at large, but definately in their social group, which is now an accepted group. Lines seem to be blurring, and stereotypes are merging, but the mainstream still holds sway. I think it's a common phenomenon: those teenagers given to introspection and thought, and those who have sophisticated interests, are regarded as weird by the larger group, who are themselves the boring ones. It would seem that this is sometimes carried over into adulthood.

More in keeping with what Estelyn and Rimbaud have suggested is one value of Tolkien are these comments from academicians who are journeying to Toronto, Canada for The Gathering of The Fellowship for the next three days.

A first article can be found here about The Gathering of the Fellowship


What I am curious about, in terms of the Guardian article, is the . After all, who knows what we all look like? And who plays with us?

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 8:37 PM December 13, 2003: Message edited by: Bêthberry ]

My mom claims that I look somewhat like Liv Tyler...

Keeper of Dol Goldur looks kind of like Gambit from X-men...

[img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

We have finally discovered what the whole deal behind Alk's member picture's page was about. For shame.

Diamond, you're right! He must be making a fortune off of the faces of Barrow-Downers. How shamelessly commercial. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

How come? Because THEY have the POWER.

"Terminally stupid-cool" is a good phrase. Heh, heh! Now it occurs to me that there is a way for all of us LotR Geeknerds to wrest the power from those that currently have it (and I do not mean Peter Jackson).

ATTENTION: Immediately commence to loudly label the popular as "terminally stupid-cool!"

What's wrong with having these certain interests anyway? Some people like horses, some dance, some sports, some TV shows, video games...etcetera. Everybody is different and trying to catagorise people by saying "nerds" or "preps" just doesn't work. By definition, I fall under this "nerd" catagory. So what?! I don't live in front of a computer, or a manga comic book, or playing cards...they just happen to be interests of mine. I'm sorry, but I get very defensive about derogatory terms used to group people together so they're easier to pick on by the "better" people. Everyone who falls under these "nerd" credentials...be proud that you know what you like and are interested in and not "liking" something because everyone else does. You're yourself and there is nothing bad about it.

I think the article is pretty cool, if a little late in the writing (geek-chic has been in since Bill Gates started making gajillions).

Actually, one of the few powerful figures in the Western world today who does not fit the standard definition of a nerd would be the current U.S. President (and no, this is neither a criticism nor a compliment, so keep your rotten eggs for a better occasion).

In general, I think the term for the so-called outcast, the nerd", is quickly being replaced by the more general label of "loser," one that cuts across all sorts of previous boundaries.

The loser is not neccessarily classified by what sort of books he or she reads, movies he or she watches, or light-sabers he or she plays with (although it often ends up that way). The definition is more based on an almost subconscious assessment of whether or not the person in question successfully functions in society.

Is this particular label fairly deserved? In most cases, probably not.

Overall, I am against both the stereotyping of the "outcasts" and the so-called "in-crowd."

I don't think it's classy to think less of a person for spending the entire weekend reading, but I also disapprove of looking down on someone for spending the entire weekend clubbing (or something even more interesting).

Also, some people can easily do both in two consecutive weeks, earning the label of both "dorky" and "vapid" (or whatever it is that the party people are being referred to these days).

Personally, I am for people being able to enjoy themselves wherever they venture, and to hell with what someone might think.

***EDIT***

For an environment that encourages both the "nerd" persona and the "in-crowd" image, look no further than my own Duke University, where we "work hard and play hard." Let me tell you, this sort of lifestyle leaves you exhausted.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 1:54 AM December 16, 2003: Message edited by: Lush ]

I thnk the real question which impinges on the minds of many here is whether the Tolkienism of ourselves is offputting to the opposite sex. I've seen posts recently which claim that the Downs has more female than male members, surely they can't all be Orli-obsessives?

In that case, why not form a relationship with someone who is committed to the ideals you believe in? The preservation of trees, the opposition to dictators, the irrelevance of the superbowl. Can this worldview be so uncommon?

On the other hand I admit that I have taken the cowards way out, I haven't talked about LoTR to the people I thought would ridicule me for this interest. Is this wrong? Surely not, this is social self-preservation, you have to play the game, when in Rome, do as the Romans do etc. I have good, valid, sound friends who think that ME is rather childish. Who am I to say that they are wrong? I would trust these people with my life though not my imagination.

I think you can learn a lot from the people who reject you, even though that might not be their intention. I like to think of Tolkien as an inspiration rather than a determinant of division.

I'm not a geek! Really! I just want to live in Lothlorien... or maybe the Shire...
O.k. that whole Orlando Bloom thing really annoys me! I'm the only girl I know (only teenage girl, anyway) who doesn't squeal when his name is mentioned. I hate it! I seem to be steriotyped along with the so called "screaming fan-girls". I've squealed only once, thank you! And that was only when I saw that Gorbag was cast (I love the whole think about the orcs thinking Sam is an elven warrior, or a tark, or a group of rebel orc... or all three [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]) and in my own defence, That's been my favorite part since I was eight (No wait! I also love Scouring and the Grey Havens... oh and that part with the star over mordor)

P.S. I have nothing against these "So called screaming fan-girls". Just a bit irked at the people who decided all girls belong to the group.

" ...that old Bilbo Baggins. 'Cracked, 'ee was."

"And there's young Mr. Frodo Baggins, now; he's cracking."

"And proud of it! Cheers, Gaffer."

********
"And there's mark12_30, now... geek, she is."

"And proud of it! Cheers..."

Well said, Ainaserkewen. What is the point at all in creating labels and sorting people into groups in the first place? What is it really going to accomplish? Sure, you get to have fun thinking of some great word that's going to be used and hated for years to come and then witness everyone's reaction and see everyone start to detest each other, but what's the point in putting effort into things like that when there are so many better ways that you could spend your time? Reading, for example! I'm sure that there are people older and wiser than me reading this thread, thinking back on when they were my age, shuddering at the bad memories, and at the same time wondering why it was such a big deal and why they didn't do anything about it. Well, right now I am my age and right in the thick of battle between the labeled groups. Everyone says that it gets better when people have more important things in their life going on, but why should that matter? Why would degrading other people be the important thing in many people's lives? Once again, what's the point?!

I say, that if you're going to be labeled as something, make the label to be what you want it to be. Make the best of the situation. I've been a Nerd/Geek/Brainiac/whatever else anyone can come up with my entire life. I figure, why fight it? If that's who I am, I don't care about that fact, and there are people out there that can accept the fact that I am who I am and they are who they are, who cares? I have a tight group of friends, and we're all sorted into the Nerd category. But, like I said, we decided not to fight it. We named our group the United Nerds and Geeks of the galaxy, or UNGG/Uhn-guh-guh for short. Nerd and Geek just aren't insults anymore. Now it's more distressing to one of us to be a "Dren" or a "cool" or "popular" person, simply because we chose it to be that way. Other people in our school still have the mindset that they are better than us, but when they say, "You're just too much of a nerd, you nerd!" We just say, "Thankie!"

~Thúle

I have indeed been labeled a nerd, for my dress style, my penchant for reading, and talking with proper English.

These thing are nothing I am ashamed of. If that is the new definition of nerd, then i am proud to be one.

However, as it has been mentioned before, there are quite a few new members on the barrow downs, mostly because of the new movies, and if the female population has risen dramatically, this is most likeley because of the horrid Orlando Bloom character.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard someone say that they are a fan of Lord of the Rings, and thus a Nerd, I would be a very rich person.

However, when asked further, the "nerd" in question is merely a pop-culture sheep. A true fan of LotR would know what the Barrow-Downs are.

No matter how fun and tempting it is, though, to all we really are doing is the exact same thing that we are saying is unfair: treating people a certain way because they are labeled something. True, the Nerds and Geeks may have more history of being ridiculed, and we seem like an easier target, it doesn't help matters to retaliate with the same acts that we are retaliating against. I'll admit, I have and I do dislike many Drens for being Drens, but thinking about it, I really wish that I didn't.

Nah.

Intelligent people go for looks, and to hell with what's on your bookshelf.

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

My parents did a very funny thing after we all went to go see Return of the King. Apparently they didn't like it, because they thought it dragged on too long, and they got tired of my glowing descriptions of it. So, they sat me down, and told me straight off the bat, that I was "driving people away" by being so obsessed with Middle-earth. I just kind of sat there and ignored them until they stopped talking, which is what I usually do when they lecture me.

Now, I say to the world:

"If you don't have the understanding to put up with something that I like, or don't realize that it shouldn't matter whether you're obsessed with Lord of the Rings, then screw you!"

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

"What is the point at all in creating labels and sorting people into groups in the first place? What is it really going to accomplish?"

It'll make it easier to sort everyone up if, for some reason, everyone on earth needed to live in a large filing cabinet.

Finwe: The next time your parents say something like that, point out to them that reading Tolkien is an English, Ethics, and Language theory class rolled into one. Also, point out how nice we Tolkien readers are [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

You know that just because a person is a nerd that is not a bad thing. I really don't know what I was considered in high school. But in College I am a Tolkien freak and a game and aneme nerd. Even though the people in my school now are grown up and stuff they still can act like children.

I have recently come to the conclusion that many teenage girls are like chickens. Now, no offense to any one, but if you have chickens you know how petty they are. The boys are much the same too. Also, some of them(the teenagers I mean) don't grow out of it.(hey I still do stupid petty things from time to time, lets face it none of us grow completely out of it; some are just worse than others) I think that this chicken way of life leads to unfair categorizing, and so those of us who are able to see the stupidity for what it is should stop it. But that won't happen anytime soon, now will it.

Don't get me wrong I try to be nice to most people, but my social skills are horrible and so I struggle. In College, especially the one I go to, the people look grown up some in their 40's and such but they aren’t. They still make fun of me 'cause I like Tolkien, but the rest of them are nerds too, that's why we're in the animation department. They just don't know it yet. One dude thought I was stupid because he was acting childish and was bugging me and I told him to leave me alone, repeatedly. I won't go into this because the story is too long. But he thinks I am stupid and tells a friend of mine while I was out of the room, like my friend wouldn’t tell me.... But anyway this is in college where we are supposed to be beyond this kind of thing. But we're not. We still act like chickens!

So, nerd yes. Ridiculed yes. do I care sometimes! and what do I do about it, keep taking Tolkien and Legacy of Kain till ears start to bleed.....

So am I, as are many people, especially those who have felt the sting of stereotypes placed unfairly upon our heads.

But those lines have become incredibly thin. The divisions exist, but, at my school at least, it is cool to be a nerd. Or at any rate, the stereotypical nerd.

Something quite strange is going on, and it might not have altogether disasterous means.
Perhaps we are looking at an end (or at least a decline) in the stereotypes of our parents and grandparents.

Annoying as it might seem to have a girl say "O my god, I looooove Lord of the Rings! Orlando Bloom and Elijah Wood are so hot! I have seen all the movies like, ten times!", it might prove usefull in the long run, for us nerds, anyway.

As for the nerd population, it has grown from the steroetypical, plaid shirt, glasses, braces, inhaler sucking, library dwelling lizards of yesteryear. I have friends who talk both Tolkien and Sports.

Perhaps the widening of the nerd pool (so to speak)will (eventually)limit the social agony we have to go through to recieve a high school education.

Its just lovely to know that the media shines upon so brilliantly isnt it, lol. i liked the idea that we all go to star-trek conventions.... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

I missed the part where life has to be fair. It certainly wasn't fair in M-E. Wishing away unfairness will not work. You were much more on target with your earlier post about taking the lemons (labeling) and turn them into lemonade. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

Psst, Finwe! They did that because they love you...and because you are an obsessed freak! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] (Just kidding.)

---> IN GENERAL <---

One may object to stereotyping, labeling, put-downs, etc. One can even refuse to engage in the activities as payback to those who mistreat or mis-label or any-label them. That, however, will not keep others from labeling you. Get used to it.

I, for one, am intrigued by Lush's term 'vapid' and hereby label everyone else on this thread as VAPID. There is a label that will never die in my book!

And Lush, you are right, in that The Intelligent go for looks--if they can get them. And, speaking totally hypothetically, if I was interested in you, I would be looking at your bookshelf, and if I didn't find the right stuff there, I would quickly drop you as VAPID. (Regardless of my opinion of your good looks.)

This reminds me of the one about the orchestra conductor who had struggled throughout his single life with whether to marry a beauty or a musician. A musical wife would be able to appreciate his life's work and contribute to it thereby. And a beauty, well, ...needs no other justification.

Finally, at a party, he met an up-and-coming opera singer that was stunningly beautiful. He fell head over heels in love, and was able to win her heart in short order. They were married and on their wedding night he was just rejoicing that he had not been forced to make a terrible compromise and do without either beauty or musical talent.

While pondering his good fortune, his new bride began preparing for bed. She removed her makeup, and was transformed into a rather homely sight. Next, she took off her wig, and he was horrified to see the thinnest wiry hair imaginable. Before he could recover his composure, out came her dentures, plop! into a water glass. When he thought it couldn't get worse, she sat on the edge of the bed, flashed a toothless grin at him, and proceeded to unstrap a wooden leg.

This was all too much for the maestro, who in a fit of desperation, jumped up on the bed and yelled, "For heaven's sake, woman, SING!"

It really is surprising how you never are in any way alone, no matter which nerd category you place yourself under for the day. I seem to be under too many at different times.

And I guess it's reassuring to know you're part of the "most monumental nerd-fest of the lot!"

Unfortunately, I know several pop-culture omnivores, who are also strangely LOTR fans.

He forgot one thing: Nerds have no social skills, except over the internet.

Add Warhammer to that list and that's my family.

I'm having way too much fun with this! Thanks Rimbaud! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Oh, and on the matter of stereotyping: I find it quite amusing when people stereotype themselves. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 2:00 PM December 31, 2003: Message edited by: Durelin ]