2nd in command to sauron
 

who is second in command, the witch king or the mouth of sauron. in rotk the mouth says isengard will be a place for saurons luetenant.

Hang on, I'm confused now. Isn't the "Mouth of Sauron" Sauron himself?

I think it is the Witch King anyway. I think at least that I remember reading about that in UT. The Witch King was the one who kind of answered to Sauron for the rest of the Ringwraiths. That would make him leader of the wraiths, of course, and wouldn't that somewhat make him second in command? I can't think of anyone else who would be.

yeah but in rotk, the mouth says that isengard will be a place for sauron's lieutenant. (and then it says that he would be that lieutenant.)

The Mouth of Sauron isn't Sauron himself! Definitely not! He was a Black Numenorean who entered Sauron's service, and learned dark sorcery, which prolonged his life. He was also quite an arrogant git, and I daresay that the treatment he got from the Captains of the Host wasn't undeserved!

What book is all of this in? I would much like to read about it.

And also, what about the 2nd in command ordeal, ya know, the point of this topic? I'm still wanting to know if I'm just confused on that as well.

That information can be found in Return of the King, during the appearance of the Mouth of Sauron, before the gates of Barad-dur.


He was indeed referring to himself when he was talking about "The Lieutenant," and added in quite a bit of arrogance for good measure, to show the Captains that he would be their Lord, and that he would never let them forget their "transgression."

As mentionned, the Mouth of Sauron was his 2IC, this is implied in ROTK during the parley at the Morannon, when it is mentionned that Sauron will give Isengard to the Mouth out of nepotism. As for the Witch King, I believe he was the chief of the Nazgul but i guess in Mordor's chain of command he was 3IC.

The Mouth of Sauron was the lieutenant of Barad Dur...

But the Witch King was the greatest and most powerful of all of Sauron's servants. By the time we hear about the Mouth, the Witch King has already fallen in battle...

But still, even with the W.K. fallen, the Nazgul are far more powerful. They know black sorcery too, but their powers are boosted by their Rings of Power.

So, my guess is that the W.K. is the second in command. Then the other 8. Then the Mouth of Sauron. The Mouth speaks what Sauron wants him to speak, but the Nazgul dont even have a will of their own... they do whatever the Will of Sauron wants them to...

The Witch-King was the Lord of Minas Morgul, so he was the head of the hierarchy there. I don't think that the Nazgul were part of the official pecking order at Barad-dur, because they had their own missions and things to do, and they were based at Minas Morgul. So the Witch-King doesn't really count officially in Barad-dur.

I would disagree. The Witch-King was the "captain" of Sauron's armies, leading them into battle, while Saruman was counted on to produce his own armies, and the Mouth was more of an ambassador of sorts, until the other two were removed. (i.e. President, V-P, Speaker, Secretary o' State; I've just realized the extreme similarity between American government and Sauron's power pyramid. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

That said, I think that the chain of command, were Sauron removed would be: Saruman, Witch-King (if alive), and then the infamous Mouth.

Iarwain

The Nazgul would be in line before some man-turned-sorceror. The WItch-King was in charge of Minas Morgul; Khamul was in charge of Dol Guldur. The Mouth of Sauron was simply Sauron's Lt. at Barad-dur, and I can't see him leaving and being given his own fortress to reign over the much more active and powerful Nazgul. It doesn't make sense.

I disagree. Khamul resided in Dol Guldur yes, but he did not lead it's armies or do anything of a commanding nature.
Tolkien states that, of the Nazgul, only the Witchking had the ability to function using his own iniative without the will of Sauron behind him. Something that would be critical for any commander.
This is proven by the fact that when the Witchking died the command of the army of the Pelenor fields passed to Gothmog. Whom we know little about but since Tolkien only states 2 Nazgul names (the Witchking and Khamul) it is reasonable to assume he is something else.
Once that battle was over, at the parley it is stated that the Mouth of Sauron is now Sauron's lieutenant. I see no reason to doubt that. The remaining Nazgul do not have enough initiative to be able to command themselves.

I do not think that the chain of command was quite as rigidly hierarchical as this. The Witch-King would certainly not take orders from the Mouth of Sauron; he answered to the Dark Lord himself.

As the name implies, the Mouth of Sauron was Sauron's spokesman. The Witch-King was both the commander of armies, and of the 'elite special forces' group that was the Nazgul. These positions are not interchangable. The Mouth was to be Sauron's 'spokesman' -- that is to say, his ambassador or representative -- in the lands that he was about to conquer.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to correct you, Eurytus:

I looked up "Gothmog" in the little index thing in my silm., and this is what came up:

Wonder if that helps?

The Mouth of Sauron was the Lt. of Barad-dur whether the Witch-King was live or not because the Witch-King did not reside at Barad-dur. Khamul *was* the highest power at Dol Guldur - see Gwaihir's quote above.

So, if Khamul was presnt at Dol Guldur, I presume that Sauron was mostly worried, after Gondor, of Thranduil's kingdom and of Lothlorien. Or what?

I was not discussing whether the Mouth was the lieutenant of Barad Dur, that much is obvious. I was discussing whether he was now the lieutenant of the whole of Sauron's forces which his statement suggests he is.

As to Khamul. He was the highest power at Dol Guldur when there were no military activities going on. None of the Nazgul save the Witchking were trusted with commanding armies.
Therefore we have this plus the statement of the Mouth himself to suggest that Sauron would have made the Mouth his 2nd in command.
Any of the Nazgul would have been wholely unsuited to the role in any case as the job of Sauron's lieutenant would have been to control and treat with the client kingdoms beyond the Anduin. Given the terror that went before them a Nazgul would have been unsuitable.

Khamul's job was probably just to "hold" Dol Guldur against any attacks by the White Council, and keep sending Orcs for reinforcements, raids, etc. I don't think Sauron was planning anything major in that sector of the playing field. His mind was entirely concentrated on Gondor, for that was where the first stroke would fall. Later, he thought that Gondor had the One Ring, so he doubled his assault there, ignoring, for the most part, the other parts of Eriador.

Except, of course, the Assault on the Lonely Mountain. I've always wondered whether the Orcs from that assault came from Dol Guldur or from Barad-dur. They would have needed a leader and some form of organization, so perhaps Sauron sent another "minor lieutenant" there, maybe even that messenger that he had already sent to Dain.

Forces from Dol Guldur also attacked Lorien three times during the War of the Ring, so someone with military authority and initiative was in charge there. Basically, we don't know enough about the hierarchy of Mordor, and there isn't enough infomation given by Tolkien to be too specific about this, or know exactly how Khamul, the Mouth, Gothmog and any others ranked, especially in the immediate aftermath of the Witch-king's unforeseen destruction.

Yes, the so called Mouth of Sauron was PROBABLY 2nd in command, but I do think that the Witch King was his most powerful servant, well I'm definitely sure...

Um, why are we assuming that Sauron had a second in command over all of his forces. He wouldn't really need one. He could directly communicate with his Lt. for each of the various strongholds and armies he commanded without a need for an intermediary. Also, he is a very power hungry, jealous, and paranoid individual; do you think he would really allow another to have power so closely equal to his own.

And, if he really did have a second in command, it wouldn't necessarily be who is the most powerful physically or mystically, or even who leads the armies. Rarely would someone so high in the commanding hierarchy be put at such a risk as battle.

The Lost ONe comes closest on this point methinks.

Saruman had he stayed 'true' to his betrayel of the West, would have been the 2nd most powerful individual owing allegiance to Sauron.

In terms of 'power' the nazgul where all far above the Mouth I would guess, but that does not mean [as the 'will factor' has shown] that they were necessarily 2-10 in the heirarchy.

Sauron seemed to keep his capts/ltnts out and about plotting the destruction or troubles of the dunedain and the Elves, and doubtless recruiting East and South.

Also as Gandalf says to the Mouth at the parley, 'Sauron is the base master of treachery'; so how can we even know if he was telling the truth to the Mouth, and not just manipulating him ?

So, as with many things in the Legendarium, we are a few facts short of a conclusion...

[ October 12, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

Khamul was trusted as leader of Dol Guldur whether he commanded Sauron's army or not. He was in charge there.
You missed the point - if the Mouth of Sauron was higher in rank than these two Nazgul, he would've been in charge of Dol Guldur or Minas Morgul instead.

The Mouth had an obviously exaggerated opinion of himself.

This would be an important part of the quote - it doesn't mean that the other Nazgul had no power to command the armies at all...Sauron would put his will behind them in a later attack following the Witch-King's fall.

I don't think he was a Nazgul either - in any case, Gothmog was stationed at Minas Morgul specifically and would've stayed there and been in command when the Nazgul were out as they were during various points in the novel. There had to be someone else behind running things, and since he was there all of the time and the regular commander was out of action when Gothmog is mentioned, it is reasonable to deduce that he would've been able to motivate or command the troops, at least to some extent, that were so familiar with him. The troops were more frightened of the Nazgul than anything - this does not keep Sauron from putting them in positions of the highest leadership.

Also, nowhere does it state the Mouth of Sauron had the initiative to command the armies.

[ October 12, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

Just because The Mouth didn't rule Dol Gulder or Morgul doesn't mean he wouldn't get Isnegard - after all, it is a brand new post! Nobody had it before, there's space for him AND the Nazgul at DG and Minas Morgul to rule!

Commading armies is a job any idiot can be given in the real world...being Leiutenant of Barad-dur would indicate that he's not an idiot, and that he could command. Hell, all it takes at minimum is the ability to shout orders audibly.

There is also the possibility that Gothmog was not part of the set hierarchy. It could have been coincidence that the command passed to him. After the Witch-King (the Commander)'s death, the command would fall to the next highest-ranking commander/general, not necessarily the set second-in-command. Gothmog could have been a lieutenant of Minas Morgul, who happened to be with the army that day, and to whom the leadership fell. It all depends on how you read the phrase "the Lieutenant of Minas Morgul." Just because the word "the" is used doesn't necessarily mean that Gothmog was the only lieutenant of Minas Morgul, there could have been others, just not present at that sector.

It's an indication that he's not an idiot, but it's no indication that he could lead an army. If he could, if probably would've been on the war front sooner than that final battle. Armies and such were obviously not his strength.

Also, with that thinking, any of the Nazgul could've done it which Eurytus denies.

Given that the Nazgul were used a lot during the War of the Ring and the Mouth was used only at Morannon and seemingly stayed at Barad-dur, it seems more likely that a Nazgul would be given reign over Isengard too, spreading their reach. The Witch-King seems most likely as Sauron would want his most trusted or powerful servant ruling in this, his most eastern tower.

Eurytus, honestly. Why?

I never disputed that the Witchking was ranked higher. The Lieutenant quote comes from after the Witchking's demise.
There is no indication whatsoever in the books that Dol Guldur would be a more senior post than Barad Dur.

Since he states the fact that he is to be Sauron's lieutenant to be a fact and there is NOTHING in the text to dispute this, your statement above is unfactual and therefore not really applicable.

When did this occur? The Nazgul did not command the battle of the pelenor fields after the Witchking died and it is extremely unlikely that they were commanding the battle in front of the black gate from the air. This would hardly be efficient. So which battle did they command?

Gwahir, your question might need rather more detail for me to answer it....

I really like this topic... so many diffirent views! As for me:
I think Mouth is 2nd in command. WK would be third. Because the WK was sent to lead the armies at Pelennor fields not The Mouth. He didn't go into battle (risking his life) before the army came to the black gates. And he says so in Rotk.

Plus we Bodyparts of Sauron take orders from Mouth or Sauron himself... not WK [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Apologies Eurytus, I was referring to this.
This line of argument seems quite unneccessary.

[ October 14, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

The reason I stated that was that I said that the Nazgul (Witchking apart) did not have any iniative of their own and referenced the fact that Sauron did not use them to lead his armies.
someone replied that Khamul commanded Dol Guldur, hence my response that this was only during the lead up to the war, not during.

Hope that clarifies it for you.

Sorry to break up the argument but who was Khamul? i don't ever remembering reading about him in LOTR or the Silmarillion?

Khamul, the Easterling, was the only Nazgul Tolkien referenced by name. This was in the Book of Unfinished Tales if I recall.

When would it not occur? With the Witch-King gone and Sauron being undoubtedly familiar with the capabilities of the Nazgul, if necessary, he would place his will behind them.

Um...what? Whether you think it to be efficient or not, the Witch-King was doing it.

You did miss the point again - if the Mouth of Sauron was second in command, I assert that he would've been given his own post already (like Dol Guldur or Minas Morgul) as opposed to being the Lt. of Barad-dur where Sauron was...Barad-dur was under Sauron's direct supervision (as in his physical presence was there).

Treebeard states the fact that he is oldest. There's nothing there to prove him wrong; same with Tom. It's not until Tolkien writes a letter back to a reader that we find that Treebeard is not as wise as he thinks - Tolkien never wrote a letter about the Mouth because no one questioned him about said character. However, Tolkien makes an important note in that letter - Treebeard as well as any other character in the story (though least of all Gandalf) is just that - a character - and not Tolkien himself, the author. It also does not mean we can't observe his character and make such judgements on our own. I don't deny that the Mouth was the Lt. of Barad-dur (since that is, in fact, stated by the author), but:

I still don't see where it is suggested that he is the Lt. over ALL of Sauron's forces, and...

...simply being Sauron's "lieutenant" does not mean he is second in command.

This is the only hint I see, but it is not a statement by the Mouth; it is merely a mention of the twinkle in his eye, thinking himself to be that one to dwell in Isengard. Would he definitely be that one? We don't know. Would that person definitely be second in commmand? We're not positive.

Surely no messenger would be second in command.

If simply being stated to be "Sauron's lieutenant" makes the Mouth of Sauron second in command, so too is Khamul - this can't be right, for Khamul is "second to the Chief," "the Second Chief" for there is one who outranks him.

Does this not show the Mouth's big head? It clearly does.

Sauron can place his will behind them...instruct them to do something. That quote does not mean that the Nazgul have no battle commanding authority at all. Additionally, nowhere is it stated that the Mouth of Sauron could, nor does he even participate in battles that we know of.

[ October 14, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

This seems like a strange discussion to me. If the question is who would take over the forces of Mordor if Sauron should fall, I'd say Saruman. I'll justify that in a minute.

However, if the question is who did Sauron designate his second-in-command, I think the question has no answer. Sauron is a heavenly entity, unlike everyone under his command. He didn't allow his servants free will to carry out their own initiative, they did exactly what they were told at all times. Sauron was in command, and all others are tools that he used. There was no "executive officer." The closest there is to a chain of command is in the military, where Gothmog took control when the witch king died. But certainly the witch king couldn't have existed without the will of Sauron to back him, (if the works of the Elven rings, which weren't bound to the One, faded when it was destroyed, certainly the power of the Nine were broken as well) and the Mouth was a messenger, not a power. It's right there in his title.

I personally think that, had Sauron won, the Mouth would not have been given Isengard, because when all's said and done, he's got wraiths who are entirely subservient to his will to carry out his whims. No need to rely on a mere human.

However, if, hypothetically, Sauron simply vanished (and his forces didn't scatter when his will broke) I think Saruman would have taken control of the forces of Mordor minus the Ringwraiths, who simply cannot exist without Sauron. That's kind of what Saruman is going for all along. He wants the Ring, of course, but he wants it so that he can take the power of Mordor and enforce his "new world order" on the West. If you're looking to fill a power vaccuum, Saruman's your man.

Well done, Legolas. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I think that about wraps it up.

Garen LiLorian, Saruman was definitely not Sauron's 2IC. Whether or not he would have tried to usurp Sauron's position had he fallen is another matter; I don't think he'd have been able to.

Eurytus.
No clarification is needed, I understand what you mean. I merely state that there is no point trying to continue the theory that the Nazgul had no initiative (wherever you've managed to pull this misconception from), after it has already been pointed out that they had. I'm sorry, but rrying to save it in the fashion that you attempted above is, frankly, quite pathetic.
Anyway, I think I'll leave it at that; Legolas has covered it all now, so there isn't really any point in my continuing [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

Legolas lets see if we can make any sense of circular reasoning such as this;

and

So according to you, the fact that the Nazgul are NOT shown to command any armies does not mean that they would not in the future. And yet, the Mouth of Sauron not participating in any battles during the story rules him out???

You do not need to command armies to be a second in command. And you cannot use what the Nazgul might have done in support of you argument.

The Witchking was not commanding the battle of the Pelenor fields from the winged beast. He took to the air to deal with Theoden.
You tried to communciate commands from 300 feet up? They didn't have walkie talkies you know.


No YOU missed the point. Let me break it down for you. I have stated that at the time the parley at the gate occurred, the Mouth was 2nd in command. Who commanded Dol Guldur or Minas Morgul before this point is totally irrelevant.

Your whole argument about whether the Mouth's comments were based on his own viewpoint of what was to happen is because you have already decided that he is not to be 2nd in command. Bottom line is that there is reference in the text that he was to be 2nd in command and there is no contradiction in Tolkien's writings to state otherwise.
Your counterpoint is therefore only based on your own opinions.

Ever heard of Rudolf Hess, 2nd in command to Hitler, flew to Scotland as a messenger?

Come to think of it what was Aragorn doing at the gate. On the surface he was there to relay a message to Sauron was he not? And he's 1st in command...

Not true since nowhere does it state that Khamul is still a lieutenant at this time. He was lieutenant in Dol Guldur prior to the events in LOTR taking place. This is irrelevant as to what would have happened after.

No, it shows that the Mouth thinks being a spokesman for a godlike entity is of greater worth than being king of a kingdom that he believes is about to be destroyed.
From his viewpoint its hard to argue with him.
Even were he bigheaded it does not change the fact that Tolkien WROTE that he was to be Sauron's lieutenant in Isengard and NEVER contradicted that.

If Sauron has to place his will behind them for them to be effective battle commanders then he might as well command the forces himself. A commander who cannot function without the guidance of his superior is worthless in warfare.


In summary the text states that the Mouth is to be Sauron's lieutenant and hold sway over the tribute realms and nowhere does Tolkien counter this.

Your comments about the nature of the Nazgul and whether the Mouth was a braggart are solely based on your opinion and therefore cannot contradict something that Tolkien wrote in LOTR.

I'll go past some of your other arguments to say simply say this, the main point:

Tolkien [/b]does not say this[/b], nor would Khamul suddenly stop being Sauron's lt., nor would being simply his lt. make anyone second in command,

No, this wasn't his "surface" reason or anything.

When did Khamul stop ruling Dol Guldur? It's totally not irrelevant. If Sauron trusted the Mouth as he trusted Khamul or the Witch-King and made him second in command, would he not have him further away ruling a fortress he wasn't physically present at? It is also relevant because Khamul is called "Sauron's lt." even though it is clear that the Witch-King outranks him - this is a clear indication that the title of "lieutenant" does not mean that he (or anyone referred to as such) is second in command, nor is there only one lieutenant.

While Gandalf is sent from the King of Arda, far closer to God than Sauron?

[ October 15, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

Actually, I think I'll do the same. May I first state that I am entirely in agreeance with Legolas here.

That stood out to me rather painfully, I'm afraid. Tolkien actually 'wrote in LOTR' this:
Whether or not this would be the case, the Mouth thought it would be.