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- - The Valar (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=563)

I am currently reading The Silmarillion and I was wondering something about the Valar...

Are the Valar the gods/goddesses of Middle-earth or are they just benevolent beings (with the exception of Melkor, of course) that Eru created to help Him govern Arda?

I noted that Manwë is called the King of Arda and is accepted to be their ruler ( under Eru's authority of course) by all the Valar (minus Melkor) but I am wondering just what ARE the Valar really?

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

from: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/

Quote:

he Powers of the World

Race: Ainur
Pronunciation: va'lar
Meaning: 'The Powers'
Titles: Gods, Great Ones, Lords of the West, The Powers, Powers of Arda, Powers of the World
Note: 'Valar' is a plural term; the singular form is 'Vala'

'Valar' is the name given to the fourteen powerful spirits who took physical form and entered Arda after its creation to give order to the world and combat the evils of Melkor. They dwelt originally on the Isle of Almaren, but after its destruction long ages before the Awakening of the Elves they removed to Aman and there founded the realm of Valinor.
Lords of the Valar Queens of the Valar (Valier)
• Manwë Súlimo • Varda Elentári
• Ulmo • Yavanna Kementári
• Aulë the Smith • Nienna
• Oromë • Estë the Gentle
• Mandos (Námo) • Vairë the Weaver
• Lórien (Irmo) • Vána the Ever-young
• Tulkas Astaldo • Nessa
This table shows the fourteen Valar in 'due order' (i.e. in descending order of power). Names shown in bold indicate one of the eight Aratar, the mightiest of the Valar.

These are the names of the Valar as they were known to the Eldar in Valinor. In Middle-earth, they were known by other names of Sindarin origin; for example 'Elbereth' for Varda, or 'Araw' for Oromë. Their names among Men are said to be legion.
The Valar in the Beginning of ArdaThe Valar where in origin the greatest of the Ainur who witnessed the Vision of Ilúvatar and so descended into Eä to fulfil the vision and create Arda. It seems that, in the first beginnings of the World, the four mightiest spirits came down into it; Manwë, Ulmo and Aulë to prepare it for the coming of the Children of Ilúvatar, and Melkor to claim it for his own domain. There was conflict between Manwë and Melkor, and Manwë called many other spirits into the World to aid him in his struggle. Among these were the other Valar, and those of lesser order known as Maiar. Melkor then withdrew for a time from Arda to some other hidden place in the deeps of Eä. In time, Manwë and his followers began to achieve their purpose, and make the World ready for the coming of the Children. Seeing this, Melkor grew jealous, and returned to do battle over the fate of Arda. The Earth then saw great upheaval as the rival powers struggled over its destiny (it is thought that the Misty Mountains were raised at this time). Slowly, though, and with great hardship, the Valar succeeded in shaping the World, although everything they created was in some way marred by Melkor.
The Nature of the ValarLike the Elves, those Valar who chose to enter the World at its beginning are bound to it until it reaches its destined end; they may not return to the Timeless Halls of Ilúvatar. As spirits, the Valar have no fixed physical form, although they often took the shapes of the Children of Ilúvatar. They could, though, assume any form they chose, or cast aside their shape altogether and travel formless and invisible through Arda. The Fifteenth Vala?
It seems that, in the distant beginnings of the World, there were fifteen Valar; Melkor was certainly the most powerful of the all the spirits that descended into Arda, and was said to have been the 'brother' of Manwë. However, due to his corrupt nature, he was apparently expelled from the order. We are told in the Valaquenta that he is "...counted no longer among the Valar...", which strongly suggests that at one point he had been

Tolkien:

Quote:

The cycles begin with a cosmogonical myth: the Music of the Ainur. God and the Valar (or powers: Englished as 'gods') are revealed. These latter are as we should say angelic powers, whose function is to exercise delegated authority in their spheres (of rule and government, not creation, making or re-making). -letter 131 The Letters of JRR Tolkien

Quote:

Gandalf was not 'dying', or going by a special grace to the Western Land, before passing on 'beyond the circles of the world': he was going home, being plainly one of the 'immortals', an angelic emissary of the angelic governors (Valar) of the Earth. -letter 268 The Letters of JRR Tolkien

Quote:

There are no 'Gods', properly so-called, in the mythological background in my stories. Their place is taken by the persons referred to as the Valar (or Powers): angelic created beings appointed to the government of the world. -letter 286 The Letters of JRR Tolkien

[ July 17, 2002: Message edited by: Fingolfin of the Noldor ]

Hmmmmmmm.....

The thought did occur to me that the Valar were perhaps angelic beings that Eru created to govern Arda but I just had to ask this question!

Thanks Elrian and Fingolfin!

Incidentially I find the concept of the Valar very fascinating and I am enjoying reading about them and the shaping/creation of Middle-Earth! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

But I do think there is another legitimate question here.

Yes, we know that Tolkien thought of them as "angelic beings." But,if you look at their functions, they also have similarities with gods and godesses (with a small "g"). Tne angels of most traditional religions or mythologies do not actually do the physical creation of the world, yet that is one of the roles of the Valar. (Take a look--what they do in terms of perfection seems to me to be an element of creation!)

Also, people do invoke the Valar in a way that they wouldn't normally ask the angels for help. Perhaps that part could also be a bit like a Catholic saint? It would also fit in with the role of a god or goddess.

So, are they REALLY angelic beings, or do they have aspects which go beyond this? I feel that Tolkien purposely minimized these things in his writings, because of his desire not to lead people to a stance that would be directly opposed to Catholicism. And there was a Letter where Tolkien explicitly says the people of Middle-earth do not "pray" the the Valar. Yet, when I read LotR, some of the invocations sound like praying to me. Plus, in his late writings, like the notes in the Road Goes Ever On, he seems to be willing to go a bit further down this road, and describes one of the songs as a "hymn" to Elbereth and refers to her watching out over the world to help her people.

So, is "angel" really a totally accurate analogy, or not?

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ July 17, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

They are 'angelic beings' they may not be angels in the strict juedo-christian sense but they are 'angelic' and they are 'beings'

Quote:

*There are thus no temples or 'churches' or fanes in this 'world' among 'good' peoples. They had little or no 'religion'in the sense of worship. For help they may call on a Vala(as Elbereth), as a Catholic might on a Saint, though no doubt knowing in theory as well as he that the power of the Vala was limited and derivative.

Quote:

It is a monotheistic world of 'natural theology'. The odd fact that there are no churches, temples, or religious rites and ceremonies, is simply part of the historical climate depicted. It will be sufficiently explained, if (as now seems likely) the Silmarillion and other legends of the First and Second Ages are published. I am in any case myself a Christian; but the 'Third Age' was not a Christian world. ~letter 165

Hey ~
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Quote:

The Valar where in origin the greatest of the Ainur who witnessed the Vision of Ilúvatar

This is wrong. The Valar are not necessarily the most powerful of the Ainur, they are just the most powerful of the ones that entered Arda. Melkor was the most powerful, and Manwe was a very close second, but there could be any number of other Ainur between Manwe and the next Vala that chose to not enter Arda.

[ July 17, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

Quote:

Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Iluvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others and among them "many of the greatest and most fair", took leave of Iluvatar and descended into it. But this condition Iluvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforth be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are it's life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.

According to this they were many of the greatest. If the Encyclopedia of Arda is incorrect as you say, maybe you should contact them and point out their mistake. they'd probably want to correct that.
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Yes, that is the quote that I was talking about. You can tell them about their mistake, though, as I am lazy. I've got enough of an encyclopedia in my head as it is, anyway.