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This forum seems appropriate for the following query.

In TTT, Chapter - The White Rider, Gandalf is telling the Fangorn trio of his plight with the Balrog and says, in the process...

Quote:

"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things."

Of course, this could simply be some metaphor or flourish of speech from Gandalf, but later he continues, saying...

Quote:

"Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

Well, that doesn't make a lot of sense considering Sauron is as old as Arda. This would suggest that there are some living things, possibly even Maiarn of a kind, living far below Khazad-dum, gnawing at the roots of Arda itself.

My question: Is this a metaphor/symbol/colorful addition to speech or could Gandalf actually be referring to "Nameless things" which he encountered while battling up the Endless Stair with Durin's Bane? If so, despite being nameles, what might these things be?

Quote:

Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he.

This is not referring to wordly age, but rather age in terms of being under the dominion of Morgoth's evil - The Silmarillion speaks of wild 'beasts' that Morgoth let run free through Middle-earth. This might be what he's talking about.

These wild beasts are also mentioned in the description of Oromë:

Quote:

He is a hunter of monsters and fell beasts,

Morgoth's beasts:

Quote:

Green things fell sick and rotted, and rivers were choked with weeds and slime, and fens were made, rank and poisonous, the breeding place of flies; and forests grew dark and perilous, the haunts of fear; and beasts became monsters of horn and ivory and dyed the earth with blood.

Quote:

And Oromë tamer of beasts would ride too at whiles in the darkness of the unlit forests; as a mighty hunter he came with spear and bow, pursuing to the death the monsters and fell creatures of the kingdom of Melkor, and his white horse Nahar shone like silver in the shadows.

Quote:

There countless became the hosts of his beasts and his demons, and the race of the Orcs, bred long before, grew and multiplied in the bowels of the earth.

Quote:

But as the third age of the captivity of Melkor drew on, the Dwarves became troubled, and they spoke to King Thingol, saying that the Valar had not rooted out utterly the evils of the North, and now the remnant, having long multiplied in the dark, were coming forth once more and roaming far and wide. 'There are fell beasts,' they said, 'in the land east of the mountains, and your ancient kindred that dwell there are flying from the plains to the hills.'

Quote:

Now these were a woodland people (the Nandor) and had no weapons of steel, and the coming of the fell beasts of the North filled them with great fear, as the Naugrim declared to King Thingol in Menegroth.

etc.

I've always thought of them as just "monsters", unspecified evil or at least selfish creatures. I also picture the Watcher of the Water as one of them.

Well, that just about answers my question. Thanks.

Gee, talking of Monsters, I hope I am not intruding on an existing thread when I ask about the Caradhras? This mountain was described as pretty much alive(!):

Quote:

'Ah, it is as I said,' growled Gimli. 'It was no ordinary storm. It is the ill will of Caradhras. He does not love Elves and Dwarves, and that drift was laid to cut off our escape.'

Is Gimli just uttering a figure of speech? Or is he being supersitious? Or is the Mountain really a monster? :eek:

Somehow, it brought to mind how Melkor filled pits with mountains and emptied seas:

Quote:

'... and they built lands and Melkor destroyed them; valleys they delved and Melkor raised them up; mountains they carved and Melkor threw them down.'

If Caradhras is one of those mountains raised by Morgoth, then it might explains the malevolence that become it... It might even be older than Sauron! :D

Caradhras is definitely not a person or monster, but characters do refer to its 'ill will.' Morgoth actually raised all of the Misty Mountains has a wall to hide behind.