did Merry have a son?
 

When reading my appendies today I noticed that on the timeline it said:

'King Eomer wished to see Master Holdwine (Merry) again. Meriadoc was then old (102) but still hale. He took counsel with his friend the Thain, and soon after they handed over their goods and offices to their sons and rose away over Sarn Ford'

However, in the family tree it shows no record of Merry and Estella having children. (The key word in the quote being sons, suggesting that there were more than one, Pippin's son Faramir and Merry's?)

Did Merry have a son that was not included on the timeline, or did I miss something?

Any ideas/comments?

I noticed that quote too and assumed that the family tree was made before the birth of Merry's children. Then I realised they had ALL of Sam's. Still, it was hardly in the habits of Hobbits to remain childless so there you go. Maybe he couldn't remember all their names?

Sam's last son was born in 1442, leaving 42 years between then and the year that Merry and Pippin leave for Rohan and Gondor. Planty of time to have children.

I always assumed that Merry and Pippin had one son each. Merry's son was obviously not included, perhaps he didn't have anything to do with the red book and so wasn;t mentioned in there. Though if you look at the later events concerning the fellowship, Merry is only mentioned when he becomes master of Buckland and then again when he dies. It doesn't seem to be the most informative when it comes to Merry.

We can assume that the familytrees were added in the Westmarch which is far indeed from the Buckland. So it might be that Eleanor was leacking some information in that part.

Respectfully
Findegil

Merry had no children as far as anyone alive knows.

With all due respect, Legolas, then what is the quote which began this discussion all about? Surely it can't just be dismissed out of hand!

[ May 22, 2003: Message edited by: Lyra Greenleaf ]

I've always wondered about this as well. In the end I decided that either Tolkien had written the passage cited in Daisy Brambleburr's post some time after he wrote Merry's family tree, or it was information he simply felt wasn't vital to the Red Book. Or maybe he just ran out of room in the family tree. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] In any case, Tolkien seemed to have had a lot of ground he wanted to cover in the appendices. Perhaps he didn't have enough time or space for everything he wanted to include.

But yes, I've decided that Merry must have had a son. The only other explination is that the passage mentioned before had a bit of a typo, which I suppose isn't too improbable. Ah well, to each their own. We won't know everything that Tolkien had in mind, and I think that just adds more fun to it all. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

My opinion would be that it had to be a mistake on Tolkien's part. He took a lot of time and effort on the hobbit genealogies that I can't imagine him having left out the cildren of someone as important as Merry and allowing the book to go to publication that way. On the other hand, one sentence in one chapter is easy to overlook. Therefore I've always thought that quote about their 'sons' must have been a slip perhaps intended to refer to whomever Merry passed the Headship of the Brandybuck family to?

Good thought; maybe Tolkien was using the term "son" temporarily to refer to whoever Merry chose as an heir, and he overlooked it during the editing process. Or something like that. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Another thing this topic has got me wondering about... maybe, if he didn't have any children of his own, Merry and his wife adopted a son, and that's who the passage was referring to? Does anyone know if hobbits would have adopted? Bit of a flimsy and probably silly idea, I know, but it was just something I was thinking about. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

No, it is not a "flimsy" idea. After all, Bilbo adopted Frodo as his charge and heir.
And as for myself I like to think that Merry did have children at least that 'son' that took over.

It's most definitely 'flimsy' - there are no facts giving it a spine, and thus can bend either way: yes or no.

Merry had a son. Tolkien says so. The fact that he didn't give said son a name is pure Tolkien, since the Good Professor does have a tendency to overlook or ignore certain aspects of his history, for reasons we will never know.

A prime example of this is the lack of a name for Legolas' dear ol' mum. And the naming of Aragorn's son, but none of his daughters. For some reason he just never devoted any energy to these aspects (Despite that fact that I'm sure he got letters inquiring about these points.)

Perhaps some day Christopher will find a little scrap of paper in the back of an old drawer... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I like that thought!
I personally think that he did have a son but Tolkien just didn't write it down. Hobbits seem to have a lot of children (13! How did she do it?) so it would be unusual for Merry and Estella not to have one.
BUT if they actually didn't have any children, why not? Hmm, an interesting fanfiction plot. If anyone wants to write one, let me know, I'd be interested to read it.

It says right at the begining if Appendix C that 'The names given in these trees are only a selection from many' in other words not all descendants are recorded.

Remember these trees come from the Red Book kept by Elanor and her descendants. This of course is why Sam's children are fully listed. Note also that *all* the other trees end with the generation of the WR with the sole exception of Faramir son of Peregrin, who just happens to be married to Goldilocks Gamgee!

It is probable that Pippin and Diamond had several other children, but they didn't marry a Gamgee and so are not named. And none of Merry's brood married into Sam's family so none of them rated a mention in the Red Book.

I agree. Somehow, Merry doesn't seem the childless type...

Morwen Tindomerel, I think you have just about hit the nail on the head and cleared it up for me. Your explanation seems plausible, I understand now. Merry certainly didn't seem the childless type.

Y'know, you'd think I'd remember that, but apparently not... [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Yeah, I think Morwen gives the best explination. There was waaay too much information that could have been given about post-WotR history, children's names being but one part. Like was mentioned before, we only have a name for Aragorn's son, and just a brief mention of his daughters. And we wouldn't even know that Faramir and Éowyn had children if it wasn't for the mention of their grandson Barahir in the Prologue. I still think that not knowing everything that Tolkien had in mind just makes things more interesting, and this discussion is just one example. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Talking Hawk did quite a good one on the subject actually.

Ah yes, "Among the Cornstalks", wasn't it? Or something to that effect... can't remember the name of the sequel, but it was really good, too. Talking Hawk has definitely written some good hobbit stories. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I'm actually writing a Merry/Estella fanfic, but it doesn't say anything about them not being able to have children, so it doesn't fall under that category. Plus, it's not all that great. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

There's also Baylor's here which has him WITH children, but I'd recommend you explore her page. It's brilliant!

Well, you lot are lucky to have known Merry even had a wife!
I have the old Allen and Unwin edition in which Estella doesn't rate a mention. I recently bought the HarperCollins edition, to save my much-loved and-thumbed A&U copy and whatddya know! A wife for Merry! I was relieved because I, too, had read that bit in the Appendices. I think JRR just forgot. And remember how much writing and re-writing he did. Can you blame him? Let's keep this simple, guys. : - )

I was wondering where merry's wife came in. I have an older book without estella - but then all the fanfic people seemed to agree that his wife was estella. I always wondered about also a quote after lorien, whenever they are talking about what they felt as Galadriel looked at them. Sam says he felt like she offered him a hole and garden of his own, then merry says "that's funny, I felt almost the same way, only ... well I won't say anymore." Maybe that is only my romatic nature - but I ALWAYS understood that to mean someone was waiting for him back in the Shire.

I don't believe it is impossible that Tolkien just didn't write anything about Merry's children. I think the fact that Estella appeared in the books so recently (my book w/o her was purchased around 1985)might say that Christopher Tolkien found that info somwhere in his fathers notes. Besides, poor Merry never did recieve much overt attention from the professor.

That is a nice, and interesting thought. I wonder what he was thinking?

And I agree with you about Merry being somewhat over looked. Quite sad, because I like his character. A humorus and funny hobbit, cheerful, but you get the feeling that he is quite thoughtful in the inside, and a bit more shy than Pippin. You get my drift!

Anyway, I like that idea, Samwise.

It would be a shame if Merry had not had any decendents to past down his personality. I guess this is something that everyone just has to create their own opinion about. If only Tolkien had lived longer so that he could answer all our questions (but he would probably get annoyed)

Wow, that's a very interesting thought, Samwise. I never considered that possiblity... and I agree with you and Daisy, I wish that we'd heard more about Merry (I think my username and icon show that I'm a big fan of him [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ).

I believe Merry did have a son. I also noticed he wasn't in the treeline, and was wondering why but these are good explanations. I don't think it was a typo; Tolkien wouldn't allow such a thing.

As I read the Appendices, it seemed to me that Tolkien all but forgot Merry completely. Besides the omission of Merry's children in the family trees, did you notice that Merry's marrage to Estella isn't listed in the timeline? It has when Sam was married and when Pippin was married, but not Merry. Quite sad.

All too frustrating too, as I'm also writing a fic that centers around Merry during and post RotK. I've been working on it for... a while now. I hope to finish it this summer. It's a pretty depressing story line though... But hopefully it will be good when it's put together. I've spent hours hunched over my LotR books, painstakingly trying to make it as true to the books as possible. Man, that's hard. But it's worth it.

I noticed that too! I figured if he told when Pippin married Diamond, he would do the same for Merry, but I guess not...

By the way, would you mind telling me about your fanfic? I love stories about Merry so I'd really like to see what you have. If you do want to tell me (I'll understand if you don't), you can just send me a PM. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Well, what if Merry didn't get married at all? What if he and Estella eloped? I don't know what the Hobbit equivalent is to elopement, but that is always a possibility. For the sake of future generations, Frodo (who wrote the account at the end) could have said that they were married.

*runs off to avoid large, sharp objects thrown at her*

I noticed that. I spent absolutly ages reading the timeline, thinking that I was going mad because I couldn't find an entry for their marriage. Because there was one for Pippin I assumed there would be one for Merry too. I wonder why Tolkien didn't put any record of their marriage in.

I was just wondering where they estella is mentioned at all - I have never found her in any book, and I looked at a newer addition!

In the Brandybuck family trees of my edition (Houghton Mifflin Company Red Hardback, leatherbound, printed in 1994 at the earliest), it shows that Meriadoc 'The Magnificent' Brandybuck married Estella Bolger (born in 1385). The family trees are in Appendix C.

[ July 01, 2003: Message edited by: arianrod ]

Well, he had to have married her sometime, because they did have a son. Otherwise, who would Merry have handed his office over to, when he left the Shire to go to Gondor?

In my opinion, I bet Merry and Estella did have children. What sort of hobbit wouldn't? *coughfrodocoughcough*

This is exactly what I think too, Birdie. I think, although Christopher Tolkien is quite old now, maybe should go through any papers he may have lying around in Tolkien's house and make sure that anything LOTR-related hasn't been left there to be forgotten for 2,500 years, then found and kept in another household for 500 years (oops, kinda talking about Gollum there... [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] ). Oh well, at least that's what I would do if I was Tolkien's son.