The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - Did They Actually Make It?

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Did They Actually Make It?

Who actually thinks that Frodo and the other ring bearers made it to Valinor considering in the Silmarillion it says "In Araman the Blessed Realm was shut against the Noldor and of the the many messengers that in after days sailed into the west none came ever to Valinor" so wots everyone think?

Very good Alatar. I think you have opened a very valid point. Christopher Tolkien should be the one answering it.

Alatar's quote from the Silmarillion comes from the time of Feanor's revolt.

The situation changed at the end of the War of Wrath, when most of the surviving Noldor were accepted back into the Undying Lands, and again when the world was "bent" at the time of the Fall of Numenor.

The rules weren't fixed; the Valar could admit or exclude anyone they pleased.

(dusting off his copy of the Tale of Elder Days [five weeks on the New York Times best-seller list]) note what the Numenoreans are told by the Valar -- if they came to Valinor, they would only "weary and burn out quicker" (nice euphemism, that). How very kind of them to let Frodo and Bilbo partake of such "healing". Frodo was a goner as soon as he set foot on that boat, and the ungifted, er, un_dying_ didn't even have to lay a lily-white hand on him.

Much more for poor old decrepit Bilbo -- and
buddy, did they pull a number on _him_.... Beating the old Took? Phshaaw -- he had a ring that would've kept him going indefinitely! But Gandalf saw early on that Frodo was the right dupe for the job, and talked Bilbo into trading eternal youth for some magic beans.

Well, its my own personal opinion that the Valar made an exception in the case of the Ringbearers like they did for Tuor. I belive that Frodo at least, if not Bilbo as well, did as great of deeds as Tuor. As for Gimli and Legolas, I don't remember if it say they come to the Undying Lands at all, but I know they take a voyage and don't come back. If they did come to the Undying Lands, Legolas would be cool, but Gimli was a Dwarf and I don't know if they'd let him in just because of their great friendship. But as earlier stated, Christopher should tell all, and that is just my opinion.

Could all those elves be wrong? Something...hope...faith...legend... led them to believe they would be received if they set sail. Throughout the story the elves seem to be both wise and informed. They act bravely, selflessly, but seldom rashly. I don't think they would have sailed or that they would have invited Bilbo, Frodo, or Gimli unless they had reason to believe they would be welcomed.

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I see what you're saying but remember this quote from Appendix A of The Return of the King in regards to Legolas and Gimli:

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We have heard tell that Legolas took Gimli Gloin's son with him because of their great friendship, greater than any that has ever been between Elf and Dwarf. If this is true, then it is strange indeed: that a Dwarf should be willing to leave Middle-earth for any love, or that the Eldar should receive him, or that the Lords of the West should permit it. But it is said that Gimli went also out of desire to see again the beauty of Galadriel; and it may be that she, being mighty among the Eldar, obtained this grace for him. More cannot be said of this matter.

The Return of the King
Pg. 1055
Appendix A

I think it's very possible that Gimli lived out his days in the Blessed Realm and I also believed that he ejoyed his friendship with Legolas until he end of days came.

I, however, do not believe that neither Gimli, Bilbo, Frodo, or Sam became as immortal as the Elves they lived among for that was not a part of Eru's plan for them...

[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Arathiriel ]

Galadriel (Noldorin) crossed too.

Frodo, Bilbo, Sam, and Gimli journeyed to the Undying Lands for good, along with Elrond, Gandalf, and Legolas. These four mortals (Frodo, Sam, Bilbo, Gimli) lived there for a while and died, as indicated in the last lines of the second quote and in the following quotes presented here.

Exceptions had obviously been granted...it was a long time after the said ban on emigration was announced.

Letter No. 154:

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But the promise made to the Eldar (the High Elves – not to other varieties, they had long before made their irrevocable choice, preferring Middle-earth to paradise) for their sufferings in the struggle with the prime Dark Lord had still to be fulfilled: that they should always be able to leave Middle-earth, if they wished, and pass over Sea to the True West, by the Straight Road, and so come to Eressëa – but so pass out of time and history, never to return. The Half-elven, such as Elrond and Arwen, can choose to which kind and fate they shall belong: choose once and for all. Hence the grief at the parting of Elrond and Arwen.

Continued...

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But in this story it is supposed that there may be certain rare exceptions or accommodations (legitimately supposed? there always seem to be exceptions); and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel.
I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' – of free will, and leave the world. (In this setting the return of Arthur would be quite impossible, a vain imagining.)

Letter No. 246:

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'Alas! there are some wounds that cannot be wholly cured', said Gandalf (III 268) – not in Middle-earth. Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him – if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil.

Letter No. 325:

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As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time - whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer 'immortality' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing.

The fact that Tolkien addressed such matters so thoroughly confirms they arrived safely.

[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

Thanks Legalos. I feel better knowing they made it and had a time of peace befor dying.
Where did you find the JRRT quotes? I would love a book of his letters or papers.

Welcome. The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien is published in paperback copies. You can check out your local Barnes & Noble or Books-a-million, or order from their websites, or amazon.com. It contains 320+ letters written by J.R.R. Tolkien to various people - publishing executives, his children, his friends, fans asking him questions, etc.

Legolas thanks for posting the excerpts from the letters as they are always a valuable reference. What I never understood was if the Valar had no power to grant immortality to mortals then how was this done for Tuor, "who alone among mortal men was counted among the Eldar." I would assume that since his status changed, then so did his mortality to immortality. Any ideas or answers.

... dunno, maybe it's more a title of recognition...

Welcome.

Eru granted immortality (or mortality). It was given or taken away at his sole discretion.

From Letter No. 131:

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The making, and nature, of the Children of God, were the two chief secrets. All that the gods knew was that they would come, at appointed times. The Children of God are thus primevally related and akin, and primevally different. Since also they are something wholly 'other' to the gods, in the making of which the gods played no part, they are the object of the special desire and love of the gods. These are the First-born, the Elves; and the Followers Men. The doom of the Elves is to be immortal, to love the beauty of the world, to bring it to full flower with their gifts of delicacy and perfection, to last while it lasts, never leaving it even when 'slain', but returning - and yet, when the Followers come, to teach them, and make way for them, to 'fade' as the Followers grow and absorb the life from which both proceed. The Doom (or the Gift) of Men is mortality, freedom from the circles of the world. Since the point of view of the whole cycle is the Elvish, mortality is not explained mythically: it is a mystery of God of which no more is known than that 'what God has purposed for Men is hidden': a grief and an envy to the immortal Elves.

'gods' above refer to the Valar, 'God' refers to Eru

Later, in that same letter:

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The doom or gift of God, of mortality, the gods of course cannot abrogate

Letter No. 153:

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Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God. The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves.

Letter No. 156:

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...for the point of view of this mythology is that 'mortality' or a short span, and 'immortality' or an indefinite span was part of what we might call the biological and spiritual nature of the Children of God, Men and Elves (the firstborn) respectively, and could not be altered by anyone (even a Power or god), and would not be altered by the One, except perhaps by one of those strange exceptions to all rules and ordinances which seem to crop up in the history of the Universe, and show the Finger of God, as the one wholly free Will and Agent.

[ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

I agree with Selmo things change after the war of wrath especially when Earendil,the half-elven, asked "for parden of the Nolder and pity for their and mercy upon Men and Elves succour in their need. And his prayer was granted" Therefore the Nolder were pardoned when the Vala got together and counseled on the matter. So Elves were allowed re-entry due to the pardon.

A nice thread. Thanks also for the Letters quotes. I loved that book and I think that it gives more insight into the author and his intentions of his creation than the entire HOME in some regards.
If the Valar "sent" the Istari, I would think that the precidence for "exceptions" was set at that time.
As for mortals burning out - well from an vala or elf point of view it would seem to appear like that. It's relative.