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Thingol 01-15-2002 09:45 PM

Saruman's death
 
What happened to Saruman after he died? It says in The Scouring of the Shire that when he died a cloud rose from his body and stretched out toward the west, but a wind came and blew it away, or something to that affect. I took that to mean that the Valar would not allow his spirit to come back to Aman. So did he just wander around ME bodiless? I don't remember if the letters said anything about this, I can't recall.

Marileangorifurnimaluim 01-15-2002 11:36 PM

This will really take an expert on the Silmarillion, but I think he wasn't allowed to return to Valar and was under the impression he was snuffed. You're probably right, none of the maiar could die and even Sauron was technically still alive, unable to take form again. It seems as though he shared Sauron's fate. There are Gandalf's words that perhaps he could be redeemed, but I don't know if they applied only to while he was in living form or not. That would be awfully sad to think that some of the maiar were lost forever. If he could still somehow return and redeem himself, that would also probably mean Sauron could (potentially) as well.

Cirdan the Shipwright 01-16-2002 08:18 AM

It's possible that there is a seperate place of waiting in the Halls of Mandos for 'deceased' Maiar.

As for Saruman, it is briefly hinted at that he created his own ring (similar to but much less powerful than Sauron's). I kind of like to think that eventually he will reform via that ring and create a disturbance at the end of the fourth age.

- Cirdan / Maglor68

Carannillion 01-16-2002 09:32 AM

I always believed that both Saruman and Sauron were expelled from Eä, like Melkor, to stay in the empty void until the 'end', when all will return to Ilúvatar and those of the Ainur who stayed behind with him.

Mhoram 03-17-2002 07:03 AM

Quote:

Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aulë, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.
Sauron and Morgoth both go to the Void and one might think that Saruman would too, seeing how his death was so simular to Sauron's. But remember that Morgoth and Sauron both had second chances, Saruman might get one as well. As far as the whole bit in LOTR about the spirit being blown away in the wind, remember that LOTR was written pretty early on and a lot of the mythology changed, I wouldn't put a whole lot of weight in the accounts therein. It's my opinion Saruman would come also to the Valar and would get a second chance in some way or another.

Marileangorifurnimaluim 03-18-2002 02:40 PM

Quote:

But remember that Morgoth and Sauron both had second chances, Saruman might get one as well.
A second chance was hinted at by Gandalf as well. What would it take for Saruman to redeem himself, given Galadriel's exile and her refusal of the ring finally allowing her to return?


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