Nazgul At Pelennor
 

Where'd they go? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] The Witch King's appearence on his Winged Steed surely shows that had the other 8 gone into the fray the batle may have gone the other way, or at least much worse for Gondor and Rohan.

If you beleive that Gothmog was a Nazgul, then it seems thta they stayed back, acting as generals. This coudl still apply even if you don't think Gothmog was a Nazgul (the one at Pellenor fields, NOT the Balrog, in case anyone's wondering! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]).

But still - why? Considering the power they wielded, espeically of terror, why weren't they used? [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[ November 05, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

Perhaps they had other tasks to do for Sauron. I'm assuming that he divvied up all of the battles/attacks among the Nazgul, except for the ones that required all of the Nazgul to be together. In the case of the Pelennor Fields, Sauron underestimated the forces of Men, and thought that just the Witch-king (a great power in himself) would be enough to cause the defeat of Minas Tirith. Then again, for all we know, there could have been a few Nazgul with the Witch-king, driving the Orc army onwards to attack the citadel, while the Witch-king was occupied elsewhere.

Well right before the Battle, druing the Siege of Minas Tirith, they were there...if they weren't there it wouldn't seem so strange, but they appear to have left!

Olorin, is it possible some were involved in attacking Lorien, Mirkwood or Dale? Those battles were going on around the same time as the Battle of the Pelennor fields. Does it say that all nine were at the Pelennor?

-Lily

I agree that the siege of Dol Goldur on multiple fronts, two by the greatest elf kingdoms remaining in Middle Earth, would be top priority for at least half of the eight lesser Nazgul, while the ordering of the still massive forces in Mordor still required attention, as well as the siege of Minas Tirith.

The rout of Faramir from the causeway forts and the subsequent siege definitely involved a number of Nazgul, whether all nine are accounted for, I do not recall, but I think not, and it is quite reasonable to assume that Sauron had a few them in Gorgoroth; remember, Frodo and Sam saw one alight at Cirith Ungol from down below.

At the point of the Battle a few may have been in flight to check up on Saruman, again, or to direct armies issuing from Dol Guldor, or from there/Brown Lands into the Wold, all of which were diversionary actions to pin down potential allies of Gondor, and not serious campaign's comparable to the assault on Minas Tirith. I doubt that any Nazgul was sent as far as Erebor.

Please note, though, the Nazgul are not brave warriors. Rather they are cowards. There strength is in lonely places or in causing the seeds of despair to grow. They are no doubt a model for the Dementors of Harry Potter. The Witch-Kings attack on Theoden and Snowmane was a fittingly underhanded manuveur.

In the face of determined charge by a force of Men, their power is marginal, and their flying beasts are clearly vulnerable to prepared archers.

Also, the entrance to Minas Tirith was the Morgul Lord's big moment, and the others were subservient to him, and he may have sent them to the rear for his own hubris.

A short-time later when he was destroyed against all odds, it must of greatly unnerved his brethren. They might have been temporarily left ineffective without their leader and the evident emergence of someone capable of harming them.

This last point would speak to Gothmog not being a Nazgul, but I tend to assume he is, and that they were not rendered completely out of it, but that it was all that Gothmog (and whatever comrades he had with him) could do keep their forces marshalled and organized from the rear, and that like Gandalf, they no longer had the opportunity to directly join in the frey.

The Nazgul alone cannot withstand a whole army, if that's what you mean. Their power is seriously un-marginal when they lead an army.

Well I wouldnt go to say that they were cowards.. they were immensely powerful beings capable of withstanding most except for mighty Elf-lords or men such as Aragorn. Yes, they do use fear to gain an advantage but.. they obviously are to be feared.

Depends what you mean by the nature of the power to which you refer. If you mean they were physically powerful in themselves then I must disagree with you. Tolkien states in one of his letters that their primary power is in their ability to cause fear, however someone who can master his fear of the Nazgul can physically overcome them. Their physical strength and physical prowess with force of arms is not up to that much. This is why Sauron uses them primarily as messengers (with the exception of the Witchking) and why Gandalf and Aragorn were able to give them a bit of pasting at Weathertop, and also why they lost their nerve totally when confronted by Glorfindel.

Indeed, even the Witchking did not choose to face King Earnil of Gondor in single combat, although he challenged him to it. When it came to the crunch the Witchking captured him through treachery.

Generally, master your fear and you master the Nazgul.

Note the Nazguls' actions after Frodo puts on the ring in the dell near Weathertop.

I think Tolkien is insinuating the 3rd was the Witch King, but you can see that two of the nazgul halted when Frodo drew his sword. Whether you can call this 'cowardice' or not I'm not sure, but they don't seem too inclined to attack a lowly hobbit (albeit wearing the one ring which may possibly have given him extra 'power')......

Ah, but the balde flickers red. The only items that we know act in that manner in Middle-earth are Sting, an Elven sword, and the Elendilmir, which blazed an agry red when Isildur put the Ring on. The blade Frodo had at that point was written which spells for the downfall of Angmar& Mordor - no doubt its magic acted like the Elendilmir, and instead of going invisible it balzed in wrath at the presence of the Ring of its enemy.
And because of this, even if they didn't know of the spells on the blade, I'd say the Nazgul were pretty unnerved.

They also scattered the Dunadan, who were brave men. Aragorn led the through the terrifying Paths of the Dead, but in UT Tolkien notes that even had Aragorn been with them they still may not have been able to withstand the horror and power of the Nine Riders under their Morgul King.

Yet they get Ferny and co to attack the Pony. They wait, inexplicably, for a while at the gates of Crickhollow before attacking a Hobbit house.
The first incident, Strider reckons they're too scared to attack a brightly lit palce like the Pony. Crickhollow...their actions don't seem like fear - indeed, they wait until dawn. Anyone know what they're up to there? [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

At the Ford, the quail because of their fear of water. Mastering your fear of the Nazgul may help you fight them, but fear is a double-edged sword - their fears of fire and water hold them back, a lot.

However, their pwoers increase when their numbers do. It seems that when not all together, they are less brave/easier to defeat than when they're all together.

There...I think there was a point in this soemwhere, I can't rmemebr anymore. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

It is very likely that at least two of the Nazgûl led the attack to Lorien (one of them being Khamul):

Well we don't know whether or not Khamul & co returned at all to Dol Guldur after the Ford of Bruinen; and as for the second passage, imho that isn't really indicative of whether or not a Nazgul attacked Lórien...still, interesting thoughts.

I think that Sauron was intelligent enough to make sure that there was at least one Nazgul "overseeing" the attacks on Lorien. I don't think that an army of Orcs, however large, could have pulled that off without just being a mindless, kamikaze-type distraction. Unless, of course, that was the effect that Sauron was going for.

The Witchking apart I cannot recall any of the Nazgul leading an army. They were not effective at it.
And I agree with the earlier poster that there is not evidence whatsoever that Khamul led the attacks on Lorien. Indeed since these attacks were pretty Simultaneous with events in Gondor it is very unlikely indeed.

Yes, the attacks were simultaneous (the battle in the Pelennor fields and the attacks to Lorien). And there is no explicit mention that any of the Nazgûl were in that battle (in the Pelennor) with the expception of the Witch King. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ November 04, 2003: Message edited by: Amarie of the Vanyar ]

Well, I think it may be said that my basic premise above has not been refuted, which is that the destruction of the Witch-King lends a plausible explanation for why nothing else is reported about the other eight Nazgul being personally involved that day on the battlefield of Pelennor.

Whether Gothmog was a reference to the next Nazgul-in-charge is immaterial, provided that one or more Nazgul was still there and still functional as a General. (In that case, Gothmog should be a Nazgul, since I find it unlikely that an Orc or Man could really direct forces comprised of the other race, and I see no need to "invent" any other Mouth-of-Sauron-type character)

It is likewise plausible (without evidence one way or the other) that not all eight were even in the neighborhood of the Pelennor. Nevertheless, given that at least a few were there less than 48 hours before (and were deterred by Imrahil's charge), it is doubtful that all eight were to be found entirely somewhere else.

I agree that none was directly in charge of day-to-day operations against Lorien or other strategic targets, but it is certainly arguable that one or more Nazgul went between Barad-dur and Dol Guldor to give orders and to provide cunning and terror to drive those largely orc-comprised armies.

The reference to Khamul and two others being in charge of Dol Guldor refers generally to the period after Sauron reestablished himself in Mordor 68 years earlier. After the Nine were assembled as the Black Riders in pursuit of the Ring, I feel that no Nazgul was permanently stationed at Dol Guldor during the War of the Rings.

Some repliers questioned my point about the Nazgul not being effective against a determined charge of men. This is not to say that they wouldn't and couldn't have fought and killed some of the good guys, and that they and their fell beast would not have been imposing and daunting.

But they were not invincible, and the unnerving effect of their captain's fall makes any decision to stay well behind the lines seem relatively prudent, for any other Nazgul. The power they wielded was possibly very much needed to keep the Morgul and Morrannon forces and allies driven to advance and fight. Sauron's soldiers were not typically willing and self-motivated.

To say that the Ulairi work through fear is a bit tame. Their power is through sheer terror, despair and a loss of will that they inflict on their victims. Warriors at the point of battle have already conquered fear and are wrath. The Nazgul will simply not have the opportunity to work their spells.

The point about the scattering of the Rangers at Sarn Ford needs to be qualified by consider three things. Those Rangers were (1) Caught unawares by a charge of heavily armoured horsemen, (2) Did not likely have horses, and (3) Were essentially unarmed.

This last point will no doubt raise eyebrows, but in contrast to the weopon-happy films, good arms were a remarkable feature for any inhabitant of Eriador, consider that Thorin & Co. originally had only knives, Gildor's troupe is not armed, and the Hobbits long daggers are very intimidating to the only crudely armed Ruffians.

Having good solid weopons is not necessarily pointless, but rather very expensive and conspicuous. This is why Rohan's military and Saruman's armory are so significant.

When we meet Strider (besides possibly a hunter's bow) he has only a broken sword, which he may have mostly kept hidden. (Why he bothers to carry around and jeopardize such an hierloom is actually a weak story point!)

Of course, he and his fighting-age compatriots had access to horses and first-class arms, which they might use when assembling with Elrond's sons for a strike against threats in Eastern Eriador, which I assume kept the non-Grey-Company Rangers and Rivendell busy throughout the War of the Rings, hence the ease with which Sharkey's motley crew moved into the Shire and threatened Bree.

Otherwise, the Ranger's were essentially undercover cops, keeping watch on The Shire, Bree and whatever other odd settlement remained in Arnor's domain. When they needed to act against a handful ruffians or bad actors, it was certainly done subtly and did not necessitate major weopons.

For a Northern Ranger (on patrol) to be carrying around a serious sword or spear would have been tremendously noteworthy, blown their cover, and alerted Sauron's spies to no end about who they were.

It says in ROTK at the battle in front of the black gate that all the eight remaining nazgul were high above on winged steeds. Since this was the case, I doubt that any of them was in charge of the assult on Lorien.

In my previous post when I stated that the attacks on Lorien happened simultaneous with the events in Gondor I meant all the events, including the march to the Black Gate.
Given that at various times the Nazgul were watching over the Pellenor Fields and were spying on the army as it approached the Black Gate, and later were all there above the Black Gate I think it safe to say that it is unlikely that they would have been at Dul Guldor.

Even though it’s been posted that the other 8 nazgul were there or thereabouts at the battle of pellonor fields, but what about the other times that Lorien was attacked, i.e. on 11th and 22nd March? I would envisage that some of the Nazgul, other than hunting for the ring bearer, could have been assisting in the fight against Lorien.

The hunt for the ring was the most important thing to Sauron so he would've had the nazgul primarily concerned with that. The battle against Lorien was only a minor thing, and possibly only used to tie up any possible help for Gandor, and so wouldn't have had nazgul leading the attack.

Fair point, but thinking on this further, why WAS Sauron battling on different fronts at the same time? Was Lorien considered a major force against him, or could it be that he was attacking Lorien in case the One Ring itself was being hidden there?

We know from the books that he may have thought Pippin possesed the Ring, but I am not totally sure he was certain of this. Perhaps his attempted forays into Lorien were part of a bigger plan to try and flush the ring out?

Sorry for going off on a tangent, will move to another post if neccessary.

I thought of this as well when I was typing my previous post. There seemed to be no reason for Sauron to be fighting fronts at Lorien and Dale as well, unless it was for the specific reason of stopping extra aid that might come from the men of Dale, the Dwarves of Erebor and from the elves of Lorien and Mirkwood. But, knowing the lack of enthusiasm the elves had in joining with men and the distance from Dale to Gondor, this seems unlikely that they would send aid.
Sauron's main purpose was regaining the ring, that he thought was at Minas Tirith or was going there, (as this is what he would have done, and seemed the most logical place for the ring) and so it seems stupid on the part of Sauron to waste his time attacking Lorien and Dale when he could have easily destroyed them after the ring was found.

I think that the reason Sauron attacked Dale and Lorien was because Tolkien wanted to show that all of middle earth was at war, not just Gondor.

I believe that the attacks at Dale and the Lonely Mt were threefold. First, and most obvious, to put a strain of the Men and Dwarves of the north. Secondly, long ago the ring had been to the Lonely Mt. Sauron knew this. He proboly believed that there was a chance that it was sent there for safe keeping while he made war on Gondor far away. And thirdly, this was a frontier to the northern wastes, where there were still many evil creatures (i.e. dragons). If Sauron conquered them, the dragons would have had free reign to swoop down on Middle Earth, which would have been disastorous.
As to Lorien, Sauron was jealous of Galadriel. He suspected that she had one of the three rings. He was ever trying to perceive her mind/thoughts, but always failed. His motivation for fighting at Lorien was to finally infiltrate Galadriel's protected realm. It was more out of pride, anger, and jealousy that he fought here.

Cheers

[ November 06, 2003: Message edited by: Mungo of Bracegirdle ]

I think that the fact that Tolkien wanted to show the war as being one of the whole of Middle Earth was certainly a reason behind Sauron attacking Lorien and the Lonely Mountain. But given that this information is hidden away in the appendix we must assume that this reason was a minor one. I think the main reason that Sauron was fighting on three fronts was simply because he was totally undefeatable in military combat. He had more armies than he knew what to do with. He certainly had enough armies inside Mordor (held in reserve) to more than deal with Gondor and therefore probably did not consider it a problem using his forces in Mirkwood to attack Lorien and those from Rhun to attack the Lonely Mountain.
From his point of view the West could not win and therefore even though the army committed to attacking Lorien was not strong enough to succeed, Sauron would have been able to crush them after defeating Gondor.
A possible lesser reason for attacking Lorien might have been to prevent the ring from travelling there. We can assume that Sauron believed at first that Saruman had the ring, subsequent to that he may have believed that Aragorn had come into its possession. That may have been a bad scenario for Sauron but he would have been comforted by the fact that Men had proved highly corruptible in the past. After Numenor and Isildur Sauron certainly would not have been too concerned about Aragorn destroying the ring and would have been fairly confident that he could defeat Aragorn even though the latter had the Ring. After all Sauron was still the rings master.
However he would have been greatly concerned had Gandalf claimed the ring, since he would have been strong enough to possible defeat Sauron with it. Apart from Gandalf perhaps the only other person who would have been capable of mastering it would have been Galadriel, whose true strength is only really revealed in the Silmarillion. Sauron would have been rightly concerned had the ring found its way to her. So the attack on Lorien could have also been for the purpose of preventing the ring from making its way there.

One thing that would suggest that the Nazgul would not lead any attacks on Lorien is this. As mentioned previously the Nazgul’s primary weapon is fear and it seems like those who have dwelt in the undying lands are somewhat immune to this. Witness Glorfindel for instance. I think it is certainly true to say that the Nazgul would be far less effective against Noldor than against men.

Galadriel was not capable of wielding the one ring, she only thought she was. This was addressed in one of the letters.

It was actually a very intelligent move to send troops up North, while the main attack took place in the South. Sauron knew that if left to their own devices, the Lonely Mountain and Mirkwood would probably send some form of aid to the South, and he didn't want that to happen. The forces that he sent North kept those viable armies occupied, and prevented a great deal of aid from being sent. Legolas probably realized that when he told Gimli that there was no need for their kindred to march to the war, for war was already upon them.

Perhaps the other 8 had other been given other tasks by Sauron.

In response to Voralphion, it is indicated that during the siege several of the Nazgul, as well as the Witch-King, were airbourne and terrorizing the defenses of Minas Tirith.

And no doubt some of them may have remained high above, but the question here is why are they not mentioned as playing any role during the actual battle, beginning at dawn and the appearance of the Rohirrim.

I have found nothing on point in RotK, hence the reason behind this thread.

I feel that some of them at least were there (including I believe "Gothmog" to be a reference to one), but the destruction of the Witch-King and other factors kept them either well behind the lines or way up above the fray.

Some have posited that they were at Dol Guldor. I think beyond one or two being in transit between there and Barad-dur, it does not seem that any was stationed there. Also, Frodo and Sam see one alight at Cirith Ungol from the Morgai, and so this (same) few may have been in Gorgoroth, then, too, between missions.

Later after dinner, I consider the other arising issue of why attack Lorien, Erebor and so forth in the first place.

I don't think they were in any other battle than in Gondor simply because all 8 have to be at the Black Gate, and there isn't enough time for them to lead the other attacks; if they appeared for only a short time, it wouldn't help the armies of Sauron much in Lórien etc.

Even being on a battlefield for a short time is enough to make a different, especially for the Nazgul. They could have "dropped by" periodically to make sure that the diversions were going as planned, and that the Free Peoples weren't sneaking out any back ways to send aid.

Olorin, you have said:

Why not? The Winged Nazgûls can reach a really high speed. Look at the events that are explained in the chapter 'The Palantir': Pippin looks into the Palantir, immediately Sauron sends a Nazgûl to Isengard, and Gandalf and Aragorn see the winged Nazgûl flying over them while they are still talking about Pippin. The whole episode doesn't seem to take longer than one hour.
We are not told where the Nazgûl departs from, but at least we know that he was at the right side of the river Anduin. Looking at the map, the shortest distance the Nazgûl had to cover is about 250 miles, and he does it in less than one hour! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

The distance between Dol Guldur and the Black Gate is about 350 miles. In my opinion, winged Nazgul could cover this distance in less than two hours. So, some of them could have participated in the attack to Lorien, and have also arrived on time to the Morannon. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

That is not correct. In The Two Towers Gandalf explains that the Nazgul was not going to Isengard in response to Pippin looking into the Palantir. He was responding to an earlier issue.

Eurytus, you are right, that Nazgûl was not send to Isengard because of Pippin. I made a mistake [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

But look at Gandalf's words [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]:

A league is about 3 miles, that means that a winged Nazgûl can cover 600 miles o more in a few hours. In my opinion, the expression 'A few hours' cannot mean more than 6 hours. So, the minimum speed for the Nazgûl would be of 100 miles per hour (600 miles or more in 6 hours or less).

Again, that is a very high speed, which would allow a Nazgûl to fly from Dol Guldur to the Morannon in less than 4 hours. Plenty of time for participating in the attacks to Lorien and getting to the Morannon on time. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

(In the same chapter it is also said that winged Nazgûl can fly at a speed grater than any wind of Middle-Earth. That reinforces my opinion that they could fly faster than 100 miles per hour. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] )

Is that the airspeed of an African or European Nazgul?

Is it unladen or carrying coconuts?

The Downs is a Monty Python free forum, so Rumil's remark is stricken from the record and you are all advised to ignore it [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Really, never add such comments to a topic, espcially a serious one. It encourages people to go off-topic in the most ridiculous ways, and I really am tired of all of my activity on the Downs being only a series of post deletions.

Thanks.

Please resume your regularly scheduled topic.

(Rumil hangs his head in shame for letting his innate Tookishness raise its head for a moment) [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

So, in a spirit of reconciliation, I decided to try and take things seriously (for once) and try and figure out what the Nazgul were upto. Therefore, I've compiled a list of Nazgul sightings from the Fords of Bruinen to the day after the Pelennor Fields (I expect I've missed some!);-

20th Nov 3018 - Nazgul get washed away at Bruinen, squelch their way back to Mordor (or Dol Guldur or Minas Morgul?)

Eventually they get home and are issued with Fell Beasts.

23rd Feb - Legolas downs one Nazgul at Sarn Gebir
26th Feb - Grishnakh mentions Nazgul waiting near Anduin (possibly same as above?)
30th Feb - Frodo and Sam see a Nazgul over Dead Marshes
1st Mar - One Nazgul patrols over Dead Marshes
4th Mar - One Nazgul seen over the slagheaps at the gates of Mordor
5th Mar - 4 Nazgul at the Morannon, 1 seen flying over Dol Baran (presumably off to vist Saruman)
6th Mar - 1 Nazgul over Dunharrow (hoping to pick up Pippin from Isengard)
9th Mar - Nazgul heard at Minas Tirith
10th Mar - Witchking departs Minas Morgul, 5 Nazgul attack Faramir
11th Mar - Nazgul heard at Minas Tirith
12th Mar - Witchking in Osgiliath
13th Mar - 'the Nazgul' (all of them or only some?) wound Faramir
14th Mar - 'the Nazgul' circle Minas Tirith
15th Mar - Witchking 'killed' at Pelennor Fields, Gothmog (possibly a Nazgul) takes command, one Nazgul at Cirith Ungol, one spotted over the Morgai (possibly same as above), one Nazgul carries news of defeat to Sauron
16th Mar - Some Nazgul fly recon over Minas Tirith

Right, so what can this tell us? First of all, between 3 and 5 are accounted for on the day of the Pelennor Fields. We know 5+ were present on the 10th. Tolkien refers to 'the Nazgul' during the seige of Minas Tirith, can this be taken to mean all 9 are there? If so, at least 4 are unaccounted for, in this case I'd agree with previous posts that they were sent to the rear to allow Witchking the glory of taking Minas Tirith, then stayed there, out of harms way, probably quite shocked that 'number 1' had bought it.

If these 4+ were elsewhere, the attacks on Lorien or accompanying the armies in the Wold or Anorien would be possible locations, perhaps one or two were kept as messengers at Minas Morgul and Barad Dur. They could perhaps still be in transit from Dol Guldur after passing on the 'attack' orders.

So what about the one(s) at Cirith Ungol? I'd imagine they were sent back to check on the rumours of spies attempting to enter Mordor - WK had sensed a presence when he rode forth from Minas Morgul. One nearly caught Frodo and Sam on their escape from the tower. Another Nazgul was spotted taking the news of defeat to Sauron. In this way, Frodo and Sam actually helped the allies win at the Pelennor Fields!

On Fell Beasts, airspeed velocity of etc., I wonder what size they were? A recent thread commented that Thorondor, 1st age Lord of the Eagles was the same wingspan as a B52 bomber. I'd imagine his 3rd age descendants as being somewhere between a Cessna and a Boeing 737. The closest aeroplane parallel I can think of with the Nazgul would be Stukas - the evil wail and all!!

Also I wonder if the Nazgul used the serious thermals over Mt. Doom to gain height before their travels?

Considering those nasty Fell Beasts seem to have had a pretty big wingspan, and seem to have been pretty powerful beasts, I don't think they would have used thermals, although they might have used other wind currents. I'm not sure if the Nazgul can normally fly that close to Mt. Doom, the only reason that they did in RotK was that they were speeding to get the One Ring, and got swallowed up in that enormous explosion that resulted.