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Tar Elenion · 04-15-2001, 06:34 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 94</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Nested implications

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Quothe jallanite:
I don't see a Valinorean birth for Celeborn being at odds with what is said about him in LotR, RGEO, or Sil. I see more difficulties arising from Galadriel's separate voyage, whether or not she is accompanied by Teleporno/Celeborn.
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In RGEO it is stated: "She passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar)...".
This explicitly states Celeborn to be one of the _Sindar_ not a Teler of Valinor. It goes on to speak of the High-Elves not being able to overcome their Sea longing which Galadriel was burdened with, but no mention of Celeborn having this desire is made (and if he was a Teler of Valinor he would have had this). This is also implied in LotR (though not explicitly stated in the revised edition).

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Quote:
A. She made a crossing separately from the rest of the Noldor in a ship accompanied by four Teleri (possibly Teleporno/Celeborn, Galathil his brother, Celebrimbor and one other). They arrived at the Havens when Círdan received them a little before the arrival of Fëanor in Middle-earth.
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Regarding Celebrimbor, this would contradict LotR wherein it is stated that Celebrimbor "was descended from Feanor".
If this version of Celeborn's flight was to be used there is no need to make Galathil his brother.

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Quote:
b. Teleporno/Celeborn is to be identified as "son of Galadhon son of Elmo" as in the version which places his birth in Beleriand; but it must now be understood that Elmo went to Valinor with Olwë.
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Putting Elmo in Valinor with Olwe is not suggested by JRRTs writings on Elmo but would lead to an actual rewriting of the conception of Elmo who was "beloved of Elwe with whom he remained".

Re: First cousin marriage:
It is likely that JRRT simply forgot, or was not considering that aspect. I dont think it is something he would have dropped.

Your justifications are very interesting.

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p>

04-15-2001, 06:34 PM	#21
Tar Elenion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 369	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit Posts: 94</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Nested implications --------------------------- Quothe jallanite: I don't see a Valinorean birth for Celeborn being at odds with what is said about him in LotR, RGEO, or Sil. I see more difficulties arising from Galadriel's separate voyage, whether or not she is accompanied by Teleporno/Celeborn. ------------------------------ In RGEO it is stated: "She passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar)...". This explicitly states Celeborn to be one of the _Sindar_ not a Teler of Valinor. It goes on to speak of the High-Elves not being able to overcome their Sea longing which Galadriel was burdened with, but no mention of Celeborn having this desire is made (and if he was a Teler of Valinor he would have had this). This is also implied in LotR (though not explicitly stated in the revised edition). ------------------------- Quote: A. She made a crossing separately from the rest of the Noldor in a ship accompanied by four Teleri (possibly Teleporno/Celeborn, Galathil his brother, Celebrimbor and one other). They arrived at the Havens when Círdan received them a little before the arrival of Fëanor in Middle-earth. ---------------------------- Regarding Celebrimbor, this would contradict LotR wherein it is stated that Celebrimbor "was descended from Feanor". If this version of Celeborn's flight was to be used there is no need to make Galathil his brother. --------------------------- Quote: b. Teleporno/Celeborn is to be identified as "son of Galadhon son of Elmo" as in the version which places his birth in Beleriand; but it must now be understood that Elmo went to Valinor with Olwë. ------------------------------ Putting Elmo in Valinor with Olwe is not suggested by JRRTs writings on Elmo but would lead to an actual rewriting of the conception of Elmo who was "beloved of Elwe with whom he remained". Re: First cousin marriage: It is likely that JRRT simply forgot, or was not considering that aspect. I dont think it is something he would have dropped. Your justifications are very interesting. Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p> __________________ Tar-Elenion